Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Martina]

i am too tired to make sense. But i will try.

Whenever someone talks about defending an identity, they are in deep water. Basically, it's a battle already lost (to mix my metaphors).

Think of people in France who are fighting for a French identity that does not include women wearing the niqab. Or again the French trying to protect the purity of their language and culture. Did that work? No. It never works.

Problems with that mode of discourse:

1) You are framing it as a conflict rather than a change or evolution. You are creating two sides when there may be many or none.

2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary. France's is an anti-immigrant racism lurking behind that pride in French culture. Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia.

3) It never works.

i am proud to be a lesbian, but my version of lesbian, which is pretty mainstream for my age-group (yes, i listened to Meg Christian), wasn't everybody's then, and it's not many people's now. You can't have an official version of an identity. And an effect of defending and reclaiming IS expressing some typical or baseline set of traits that one is defending. YAY for Berkies may mean Manolos are not the footwear of the lesbian elite. I's dangerous. i have seen that with "femme." It's going on with "butch" all over.

We can't look at it as reclaiming and defending without becoming reactionary. It's inevitable.

My suggestion is that we show up as we are and love ourselves. If it's a political setting with a specific goal, then politicize the debate. But be careful about how we define ourselves.

There are lesbians here who aren't "women loving women." They are living with and loving men. They are lesbians. I myself feel liberated by that. It means there is more room for me to breathe. It means i have new sisters and brothers.

[Julie]

I celebrate my Lesbian Pride and my Lesbian Heritage.
There is, nor was there ever anything for me to reclaim.
I never gave it UP!

Even when The Lesbians called me a traitor for marrying my best friend who happened to be a gay man and attempted to throw me out of the "Club."

It is quite simple for me... As a Lesbian who LOVES Masculine Butches and only dates Masculine Butches -- I am a Lesbian.

If I were to get in an accident tomorrow and unable to move my body or feel sensation - Never again to be touched or touch another. Or if I were to choose to never date again.

I would still be a Lesbian!

Who you fuck - Who you play with - Who you date - Who you associate with...

Has nothing to do with personal identity.

I am Julie
I am a Lesbian
I am a Femme
I am a Woman
I am a Mother
I am a Daughter
I am a Partner
I am a Friend

None of the above descriptors can ever be taken away -- And again... For me.
Nothing to reclaim.
I came out in 1979 as a Lesbian and I will die a Lesbian!

In all honesty, I am sick and tired of people placing constraints on ones identity. You can't be a lesbian - your hair is too long. You can't be a lesbian, you have long nails. You can't be a lesbian, you dress like a man. You can't be a lesbian, you are out of a 50's housewife movie.

Who says?

Julie

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Martina

i am too tired to make sense. But i will try.

Whenever someone talks about defending an identity, they are in deep water. Basically, it's a battle already lost (to mix my metaphors).

Think of people in France who are fighting for a French identity that does not include women wearing the niqab. Or again the French trying to protect the purity of their language and culture. Did that work? No. It never works.

Problems with that mode of discourse:

1) You are framing it as a conflict rather than a change or evolution. You are creating two sides when there may be many or none.
2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary. France's is an anti-immigrant racism lurking behind that pride in French culture. Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia.
3) It never works.
We can't look at it as reclaiming and defending without becoming reactionary. It's inevitable.

My suggestion is that we show up as we are and love ourselves. If it's a political setting with a specific goal, then politicize the debate. But be careful about how we define ourselves.

There are lesbians here who aren't "women loving women." They are living with and loving men. They are lesbians. I myself feel liberated by that. It means there is more room for me to breathe. It means i have new sisters and brothers.

I do not mean this in a hostile, angry manner but truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man.

I am also of the Meg generation and have no problem admitting that. I guess we all can have a different definition of the same word but I would not have been disowned by my family if I had brought home a man. My parents screamed lesbian at me as though it were a filthy, ugly word and they seemed to know what a lesbian was.

Re: children. I married at 18 and 2 babies by the time I was 21. I could not admit to myself I was gay until my mid-20's. Many women come out in later life and live with women the rest of their days.

The whole trans issue confuses me. The new gender spectrum confuses me. It was not a part of my world until the planet. I may not understand it but I would defend to the end anyone's right to live their life their way. Not understanding is not the same as transphobia! The only phobia I have in my life is claustrophobia.

My definition of lesbian is as I see it for myself as I posted it and I believe that I have the the right to call it as I see it for myself in a specifically lesbian thread, or don't I? Did that change too?

I have stated before and will again: I always do my best to make "I" statements when I post.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I do not mean this in a hostile, angry manner but truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man.

I am also of the Meg generation and have no problem admitting that. I guess we all can have a different definition of the same word but I would not have been disowned by my family if I had brought home a man. My parents screamed lesbian at me as though it were a filthy, ugly word and they seemed to know what a lesbian was.

Yet here you are claiming to know - what a Lesbian is!

Re: children. I married at 18 and 2 babies by the time I was 21. I could not admit to myself I was gay until my mid-20's. Many women come out in later life and live with women the rest of their days.

Some would say even today (lesbian community) You are simply Bi-Sexual. How do you feel about that?


The whole trans issue confuses me. The new gender spectrum confuses me. It was not a part of my world until the planet. I may not understand it but I would defend to the end anyone's right to live their life their way.

My way, my definition of lesbian is as I posted it and believe I do gave the right to call it as I see it for myself.

And that is the beauty of being a Lesbian. Nobody can take this away from you. Not now and not ever.

One cannot possibly help who one falls in love with. It is a chemical and spiritual reaction. Your soul is touched on levels which are almost incomprehensible.

I know you do not understand the trans issue... I remember once upon a time, not understanding it either. Though, I was much younger than I am now. I am glad you are here now at the Planet and are learning about our very diverse queer community here.

I have never dated a male identified butch. I have always dated Female Identified Butches. I cannot possibly honestly say, that I would not (if my circumstances were different). And if I did, I would be devastated to learn, that my community shunned me. It would not change the fact, that I am a Lesbian loving a M/I butch.

Julie

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I do not mean this in a hostile, angry manner but truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man.
.

I don't get this either. We seem to be rendering the word lesbian meaningless.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by tapu

I don't get this either. We seem to be rendering the word lesbian meaningless.

Do you mean... You and Anya?

I am so sorry you find our history to be so meaningless.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

Do you mean... You and Anya?

I am so sorry you find our history to be so meaningless.

No, sorry, I meant that I "truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man." (from the part of Anya's post that I quoted)

If a woman is in a loving and sexual relationship with a man, then in what sense is she a lesbian?

[Julie]

Originally Posted by tapu

No, sorry, I meant that I "truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man." (from the part of Anya's post that I quoted)

If a woman is in a loving and sexual relationship with a man, then in what sense is she a lesbian?

It is the core of her being. Her soul, Tapu.
One cannot argue with the soul of another human being.

Being a Lesbian is not sexual. That's what the right wing says. I hope people in our community are not saying or implying the same thing.

If you were never able to be touched or touch another female bodied person again, in an intimate manner - Would you stop being a lesbian?

If you were never to love another woman again - Would you stop being a lesbian?

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

It is the core of her being. Her soul, Tapu.
One cannot argue with the soul of another human being.

Being a Lesbian is not sexual. That's what the right wing says. I hope people in our community are not saying or implying the same thing.

If you were never able to be touched or touch another female bodied person again, in an intimate manner - Would you stop being a lesbian?

If you were never to love another woman again - Would you stop being a lesbian?

No, I would have to fall in love with a man as a partner and enjoy the sex with him. Then, I would not be a lesbian. I would be, historically at least, bisexual.

[BullDog]

The possibilities are endless. I claim lesbian and dyke in addition to being a butch woman. I have dated femmes that were lesbians. However I have also dated femmes who did not claim lesbian (they claimed bisexual, queer or gay). Also some of the femmes I have dated have also dated men, FTMs, male identified butches, etc- some were lesbians, some weren't. The women I have dated have or had their own identities before dating me and continue to do so. The fact that they are dating a butch lesbian doesn't change their identity.

So you can also have a woman to woman relationship where one or both women are not lesbians.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by tapu

I don't get this either. We seem to be rendering the word lesbian meaningless.

I think it is about whether one defining is lesbian as a cultural orientation, rather than just a sexual orientation.

The women that I have known who have dated men who defined as lesbians, dated women exclusively at one point (which was also the point when they first took on the identity of lesbian). It became their identity on many levels and they still identify with those many other levels even if they are currently dating a man.

In this community is it not completely unusual.

Hope this helps, tapu.

[tapu]

But isn't that the meaning of bisexual?

[Kobi]

I said I would be disappointed if this deteriorated into a discussion of linguistics rather than what is behind the words. Consider me disappointed.

Who we fuck, who we play with, who we date has nothing to do with personal identity? You know that isnt even logical right?

Yes Anya, you do have the right to speak for your identity as you define it. And no one is call you a bisexual for having once been married and having kids via (shock) a penis.

It is not about linguistics or even identities. It is about what is behind those.

And obviously, a discussion of that is too threatening to some people.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I said I would be disappointed if this deteriorated into a discussion of linguistics rather than what is behind the words. Consider me disappointed.

Wo we fuck, who we play with, who we date has nothing to do with personal identity? You know that isnt even logical right?

Yes Anya, you do have the right to speak for your identity as you define it. And no one is call you a bisexual for having once been married and having kids via (shock) a penis.

It is not about linguistics or even identities. It is about what is behind those.

And obviously, a discussion of that is too threatening to some people.

Kobi can you expand what this means? What is threatening? I'm confused. Thanks in advance

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Martina

Problems with that mode of discourse:

1) You are framing it as a conflict rather than a change or evolution. You are creating two sides when there may be many or none.

2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary. France's is an anti-immigrant racism lurking behind that pride in French culture. Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia.

3) It never works.

Your analysis here bears directly on the issues raised by the shifting pronoun paradigm, too.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Martina

i am too tired to make sense. But i will try.

Whenever someone talks about defending an identity, they are in deep water. Basically, it's a battle already lost (to mix my metaphors)....

2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary. France's is an anti-immigrant racism lurking behind that pride in French culture. Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia....

Martina, I'm not sure why you wrote this particular thing. It's an accusation that you don't explain or support. I understand that you take issue with someone, anyone, defining what it means to be a lesbian, but why did you write that doing so "probably (has) some(thing to do with) transphobia"?

I have no trouble defining what being a lesbian means to me. It means that I'm a woman who has sex with and partners with other women. As it happens, butch women. Very butch women. It has nothing to do with whether or not I'm stone. (yep, I am.) It has nothing to do with whether or not I'm currently having sex. (not much lately, but a girl can hope.)

If I say that for me to call myself a lesbian I would have to by and large continue to fit the above criteria, why is that transphobic?

[christie]

I have been following the conversation and can genuinely understand Kobi's frustration and disappointment in that the thread simply about being proud to be a lesbian as turned into another dismantling, redefining of a word.

Some may not agree, but I do see how "lesbian" has been marginalized in online BF communities. That I ID as femme yet openly admit attraction to other femmes has been met with less than open arms, mostly by masculine ID'd or transmen. That's not me being transphobic or a misandrist, but it is my personal experience.

I do think that defining lesbian does include who you fuck. I made some choices in my 20's to try and walk that hetero path. It was a choice. It didn't change that I was a lesbian; however, to me, I didn't get to claim being a lesbian because I had the legal rights and privileges associated with being a heterosexual. I didn't claim it because I wasn't getting the shit beat out of me for fucking women. I didn't claim it because I didn't get disowned/kicked out for fucking women. I didn't get to claim it because I wasn't living as one.

The unfortunate part of re-defining lesbian (to me) is that there are legalities attached to it - if I had the same rights as a heterosexual woman, it probably wouldn't matter so much that the persons claiming the ID might not actively fuck women. I think that as I came to live an authentic, true to myself life, I have become more protective of that descriptor. I have fought to claim it, both personally, socially and professionally.

I will say that I have never experienced so much interpretation, defining, re-interpretation, re-defining, dismantling, rebuilding, casting aside and reclaiming of descriptors as I have in the online BF communities. I don't see it in other queer online communities and I don't see it in my real life communities.

Jess and I attended a Melissa Etheridge concert last week. Holy cow - ten thousand or so folks, mostly lesbians. I saw a great many interactions, but not once did I hear a conversation about descriptors. (Some may not like my use of "descriptors" but that's the place in my life that IDing words fall) One might argue that it wasn't the venue for such conversations to take place, but in all of my real-time interactions with a great number of queers, OC (online communities) are the ONLY place it takes happens. The only time I have been involved with these types of conversations in real time is when I am in a group of folks who also participate in OC. Period. Many years of meaningful, raw conversations and not once can I recall if it mattered if one was female ID'd, masculine ID'd, femme, butch, etc. Femme and butch might have come into play if it was a conversation about what/who flips my switches, but none of what I call the overanalyzation of words.

I really do give less than a damn about how folks ID. The only IDs that matter to me are mine and Jess' - and the only time hers matters is when its being cast aside, erased or questioned.

I completely understand how it feels to be erased or feel made less than - lesbian HAS been dismissed in BF online communities and its because we lesbians allowed it to happen. Shame on me for not speaking louder. Shame on me for conceding space. Shame on me for being complacent.

Sometimes, I think I am just too comfortable in my skin.

This is just my take on it - your mileage may vary.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

If I say that for me to call myself a lesbian I would have to by and large continue to fit the above criteria, why is that transphobic?

i think that going out of one's way to defend or reclaim and ID that is changing usually has a reason. One is being defensive or wanting to take something back from a group or groups who one may feel has appropriated your ID. That generally means exclusion.

Here's a quote from a post made later in the thread by the OP:

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

So who is making this person feel invisible? Who is NOT like her? i am guessing maybe transfolk or people involved with them. Or perhaps male-ID'd or bisexuals -- not sure. But there is some group the poster is talking about.

[Turtle]

So, I've been going thru some stuff lately and a friend of mine gave me a few old school lesbian novels from the 1970s and 80s. At first, I was like "I dunno," but then I thought "Yeah, maybe I should revisit this time period, remembering the old women's bookstores that are almost all gone, Womankind Books, Naiad Press and the like when the publishing world was in such a different place and book for us, or any non-white non-hetero-normative group, were so hard to come by.

So, anyway, I'm reading the books and being thankful for those who have gone before me.



AND I feel a constant sorrow for wanting to be more active in the local community, but (I know it's my choice but) I won't step foot in our local Queer center because it used to be called The Lambda Center and now after much discussion, with all views being heard, they still chose to rename it The Gay and Lesbian Center. And I just won't participate in the erasure of folks like that.

[citybutch]

I have little to say... and much to contribute.

http://writingforstrangers.com/writi...emme-identity/