Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I do not mean this in a hostile, angry manner but truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man.
.

I don't get this either. We seem to be rendering the word lesbian meaningless.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by tapu

I don't get this either. We seem to be rendering the word lesbian meaningless.

Do you mean... You and Anya?

I am so sorry you find our history to be so meaningless.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

Do you mean... You and Anya?

I am so sorry you find our history to be so meaningless.

No, sorry, I meant that I "truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man." (from the part of Anya's post that I quoted)

If a woman is in a loving and sexual relationship with a man, then in what sense is she a lesbian?

[Julie]

Originally Posted by tapu

No, sorry, I meant that I "truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man." (from the part of Anya's post that I quoted)

If a woman is in a loving and sexual relationship with a man, then in what sense is she a lesbian?

It is the core of her being. Her soul, Tapu.
One cannot argue with the soul of another human being.

Being a Lesbian is not sexual. That's what the right wing says. I hope people in our community are not saying or implying the same thing.

If you were never able to be touched or touch another female bodied person again, in an intimate manner - Would you stop being a lesbian?

If you were never to love another woman again - Would you stop being a lesbian?

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

It is the core of her being. Her soul, Tapu.
One cannot argue with the soul of another human being.

Being a Lesbian is not sexual. That's what the right wing says. I hope people in our community are not saying or implying the same thing.

If you were never able to be touched or touch another female bodied person again, in an intimate manner - Would you stop being a lesbian?

If you were never to love another woman again - Would you stop being a lesbian?

No, I would have to fall in love with a man as a partner and enjoy the sex with him. Then, I would not be a lesbian. I would be, historically at least, bisexual.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by tapu

No, I would have to fall in love with a man as a partner and enjoy the sex with him. Then, I would not be a lesbian. I would be, historically at least, bisexual.

Okay, I understand!

Being a Lesbian is sexual in nature for you.
For many, it is not sexual in nature.

But, I respect your personal sexual identity.

[tapu]

By lesbian, I mean a woman who is (now) biologically a female, who is attracted to other women who are (now) biologically female.

I reject the assertion that this is a right-wing definition.

There are other words to describe the other specific sexual orientations you describe. If I fit that first one, I'm a lesbian, like it or not.

Someone above stated, "Words have meanings." And that's good or we would be rattling around the fabled Tower of Babel.

[tapu]

I'm confused. How can you be concerned with our history, and yet claim that lesbian is not sexual in nature? What do you think it ever meant? From what descriptive need did it arise?


Sorry--meant to quote julie's last post on this.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by tapu

No, I would have to fall in love with a man as a partner and enjoy the sex with him. Then, I would not be a lesbian. I would be, historically at least, bisexual.

In 1925 lesbian was used by medical literature to indicate sodomite. Sometimes language evolves, your a linguist yes? I would think you would see this in your line of work, I'm not highly educated and know that words have meaning to us differently. The root of it belongs to woman, I'm not denying that yet with time and more freedom to be out it's evolved and meanings are different to each individual with the root of it being WOMAN. In this online venue we have many lesbians who have partnered with men or are with men that does not make them less than as lesbians it's who they are.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

In 1925 lesbian was used by medical literature to indicate sodomite. Sometimes language evolves, your a linguist yes? I would think you would see this in your line of work, I'm not highly educated and know that words have meaning to us differently. The root of it belongs to woman, I'm not denying that yet with time and more freedom to be out it's evolved and meanings are different to each individual with the root of it being WOMAN. In this online venue we have many lesbians who have partnered with men or are with men that does not make them less than as lesbians it's who they are.

You're right and I meant in more current use. Like, when we walk away from this thread, the word will mean, to the very, very vast majority of native speakers what I defined it as above. We can go on about wanting to change the meaning, but that's not how language changes, as Martina laid out. Besides, why do that?? I may be on a level far less philosophical than everyone else, but for me there has to be some logical, real-world application.

I sense a general anger directed at me. Please know that I am reading and respecting your objective points.

[BullDog]

The possibilities are endless. I claim lesbian and dyke in addition to being a butch woman. I have dated femmes that were lesbians. However I have also dated femmes who did not claim lesbian (they claimed bisexual, queer or gay). Also some of the femmes I have dated have also dated men, FTMs, male identified butches, etc- some were lesbians, some weren't. The women I have dated have or had their own identities before dating me and continue to do so. The fact that they are dating a butch lesbian doesn't change their identity.

So you can also have a woman to woman relationship where one or both women are not lesbians.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by tapu

I don't get this either. We seem to be rendering the word lesbian meaningless.

I think it is about whether one defining is lesbian as a cultural orientation, rather than just a sexual orientation.

The women that I have known who have dated men who defined as lesbians, dated women exclusively at one point (which was also the point when they first took on the identity of lesbian). It became their identity on many levels and they still identify with those many other levels even if they are currently dating a man.

In this community is it not completely unusual.

Hope this helps, tapu.

[tapu]

But isn't that the meaning of bisexual?

[Kobi]

I said I would be disappointed if this deteriorated into a discussion of linguistics rather than what is behind the words. Consider me disappointed.

Who we fuck, who we play with, who we date has nothing to do with personal identity? You know that isnt even logical right?

Yes Anya, you do have the right to speak for your identity as you define it. And no one is call you a bisexual for having once been married and having kids via (shock) a penis.

It is not about linguistics or even identities. It is about what is behind those.

And obviously, a discussion of that is too threatening to some people.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I said I would be disappointed if this deteriorated into a discussion of linguistics rather than what is behind the words. Consider me disappointed.

Wo we fuck, who we play with, who we date has nothing to do with personal identity? You know that isnt even logical right?

Yes Anya, you do have the right to speak for your identity as you define it. And no one is call you a bisexual for having once been married and having kids via (shock) a penis.

It is not about linguistics or even identities. It is about what is behind those.

And obviously, a discussion of that is too threatening to some people.

Kobi can you expand what this means? What is threatening? I'm confused. Thanks in advance