Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Martina

i am too tired to make sense. But i will try.

Whenever someone talks about defending an identity, they are in deep water. Basically, it's a battle already lost (to mix my metaphors).

Think of people in France who are fighting for a French identity that does not include women wearing the niqab. Or again the French trying to protect the purity of their language and culture. Did that work? No. It never works.

Problems with that mode of discourse:

1) You are framing it as a conflict rather than a change or evolution. You are creating two sides when there may be many or none.
2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary. France's is an anti-immigrant racism lurking behind that pride in French culture. Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia.
3) It never works.
We can't look at it as reclaiming and defending without becoming reactionary. It's inevitable.

My suggestion is that we show up as we are and love ourselves. If it's a political setting with a specific goal, then politicize the debate. But be careful about how we define ourselves.

There are lesbians here who aren't "women loving women." They are living with and loving men. They are lesbians. I myself feel liberated by that. It means there is more room for me to breathe. It means i have new sisters and brothers.

I do not mean this in a hostile, angry manner but truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man.

I am also of the Meg generation and have no problem admitting that. I guess we all can have a different definition of the same word but I would not have been disowned by my family if I had brought home a man. My parents screamed lesbian at me as though it were a filthy, ugly word and they seemed to know what a lesbian was.

Re: children. I married at 18 and 2 babies by the time I was 21. I could not admit to myself I was gay until my mid-20's. Many women come out in later life and live with women the rest of their days.

The whole trans issue confuses me. The new gender spectrum confuses me. It was not a part of my world until the planet. I may not understand it but I would defend to the end anyone's right to live their life their way. Not understanding is not the same as transphobia! The only phobia I have in my life is claustrophobia.

My definition of lesbian is as I see it for myself as I posted it and I believe that I have the the right to call it as I see it for myself in a specifically lesbian thread, or don't I? Did that change too?

I have stated before and will again: I always do my best to make "I" statements when I post.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I do not mean this in a hostile, angry manner but truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man.

I am also of the Meg generation and have no problem admitting that. I guess we all can have a different definition of the same word but I would not have been disowned by my family if I had brought home a man. My parents screamed lesbian at me as though it were a filthy, ugly word and they seemed to know what a lesbian was.

Yet here you are claiming to know - what a Lesbian is!

Re: children. I married at 18 and 2 babies by the time I was 21. I could not admit to myself I was gay until my mid-20's. Many women come out in later life and live with women the rest of their days.

Some would say even today (lesbian community) You are simply Bi-Sexual. How do you feel about that?


The whole trans issue confuses me. The new gender spectrum confuses me. It was not a part of my world until the planet. I may not understand it but I would defend to the end anyone's right to live their life their way.

My way, my definition of lesbian is as I posted it and believe I do gave the right to call it as I see it for myself.

And that is the beauty of being a Lesbian. Nobody can take this away from you. Not now and not ever.

One cannot possibly help who one falls in love with. It is a chemical and spiritual reaction. Your soul is touched on levels which are almost incomprehensible.

I know you do not understand the trans issue... I remember once upon a time, not understanding it either. Though, I was much younger than I am now. I am glad you are here now at the Planet and are learning about our very diverse queer community here.

I have never dated a male identified butch. I have always dated Female Identified Butches. I cannot possibly honestly say, that I would not (if my circumstances were different). And if I did, I would be devastated to learn, that my community shunned me. It would not change the fact, that I am a Lesbian loving a M/I butch.

Julie

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I do not mean this in a hostile, angry manner but truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man.
.

I don't get this either. We seem to be rendering the word lesbian meaningless.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by tapu

I don't get this either. We seem to be rendering the word lesbian meaningless.

Do you mean... You and Anya?

I am so sorry you find our history to be so meaningless.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

Do you mean... You and Anya?

I am so sorry you find our history to be so meaningless.

No, sorry, I meant that I "truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man." (from the part of Anya's post that I quoted)

If a woman is in a loving and sexual relationship with a man, then in what sense is she a lesbian?

[Julie]

Originally Posted by tapu

No, sorry, I meant that I "truly do not understand the definition of a lesbian if one is in a love, sexual relationship with a man." (from the part of Anya's post that I quoted)

If a woman is in a loving and sexual relationship with a man, then in what sense is she a lesbian?

It is the core of her being. Her soul, Tapu.
One cannot argue with the soul of another human being.

Being a Lesbian is not sexual. That's what the right wing says. I hope people in our community are not saying or implying the same thing.

If you were never able to be touched or touch another female bodied person again, in an intimate manner - Would you stop being a lesbian?

If you were never to love another woman again - Would you stop being a lesbian?

[tapu]

Originally Posted by Julie

It is the core of her being. Her soul, Tapu.
One cannot argue with the soul of another human being.

Being a Lesbian is not sexual. That's what the right wing says. I hope people in our community are not saying or implying the same thing.

If you were never able to be touched or touch another female bodied person again, in an intimate manner - Would you stop being a lesbian?

If you were never to love another woman again - Would you stop being a lesbian?

No, I would have to fall in love with a man as a partner and enjoy the sex with him. Then, I would not be a lesbian. I would be, historically at least, bisexual.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by tapu

No, I would have to fall in love with a man as a partner and enjoy the sex with him. Then, I would not be a lesbian. I would be, historically at least, bisexual.

Okay, I understand!

Being a Lesbian is sexual in nature for you.
For many, it is not sexual in nature.

But, I respect your personal sexual identity.

[tapu]

By lesbian, I mean a woman who is (now) biologically a female, who is attracted to other women who are (now) biologically female.

I reject the assertion that this is a right-wing definition.

There are other words to describe the other specific sexual orientations you describe. If I fit that first one, I'm a lesbian, like it or not.

Someone above stated, "Words have meanings." And that's good or we would be rattling around the fabled Tower of Babel.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by tapu

No, I would have to fall in love with a man as a partner and enjoy the sex with him. Then, I would not be a lesbian. I would be, historically at least, bisexual.

In 1925 lesbian was used by medical literature to indicate sodomite. Sometimes language evolves, your a linguist yes? I would think you would see this in your line of work, I'm not highly educated and know that words have meaning to us differently. The root of it belongs to woman, I'm not denying that yet with time and more freedom to be out it's evolved and meanings are different to each individual with the root of it being WOMAN. In this online venue we have many lesbians who have partnered with men or are with men that does not make them less than as lesbians it's who they are.

[BullDog]

The possibilities are endless. I claim lesbian and dyke in addition to being a butch woman. I have dated femmes that were lesbians. However I have also dated femmes who did not claim lesbian (they claimed bisexual, queer or gay). Also some of the femmes I have dated have also dated men, FTMs, male identified butches, etc- some were lesbians, some weren't. The women I have dated have or had their own identities before dating me and continue to do so. The fact that they are dating a butch lesbian doesn't change their identity.

So you can also have a woman to woman relationship where one or both women are not lesbians.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by tapu

I don't get this either. We seem to be rendering the word lesbian meaningless.

I think it is about whether one defining is lesbian as a cultural orientation, rather than just a sexual orientation.

The women that I have known who have dated men who defined as lesbians, dated women exclusively at one point (which was also the point when they first took on the identity of lesbian). It became their identity on many levels and they still identify with those many other levels even if they are currently dating a man.

In this community is it not completely unusual.

Hope this helps, tapu.

[tapu]

But isn't that the meaning of bisexual?

[Kobi]

I said I would be disappointed if this deteriorated into a discussion of linguistics rather than what is behind the words. Consider me disappointed.

Who we fuck, who we play with, who we date has nothing to do with personal identity? You know that isnt even logical right?

Yes Anya, you do have the right to speak for your identity as you define it. And no one is call you a bisexual for having once been married and having kids via (shock) a penis.

It is not about linguistics or even identities. It is about what is behind those.

And obviously, a discussion of that is too threatening to some people.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I said I would be disappointed if this deteriorated into a discussion of linguistics rather than what is behind the words. Consider me disappointed.

Wo we fuck, who we play with, who we date has nothing to do with personal identity? You know that isnt even logical right?

Yes Anya, you do have the right to speak for your identity as you define it. And no one is call you a bisexual for having once been married and having kids via (shock) a penis.

It is not about linguistics or even identities. It is about what is behind those.

And obviously, a discussion of that is too threatening to some people.

Kobi can you expand what this means? What is threatening? I'm confused. Thanks in advance