Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Martina

i am too tired to make sense. But i will try.

Whenever someone talks about defending an identity, they are in deep water. Basically, it's a battle already lost (to mix my metaphors)....

2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary. France's is an anti-immigrant racism lurking behind that pride in French culture. Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia....

Martina, I'm not sure why you wrote this particular thing. It's an accusation that you don't explain or support. I understand that you take issue with someone, anyone, defining what it means to be a lesbian, but why did you write that doing so "probably (has) some(thing to do with) transphobia"?

I have no trouble defining what being a lesbian means to me. It means that I'm a woman who has sex with and partners with other women. As it happens, butch women. Very butch women. It has nothing to do with whether or not I'm stone. (yep, I am.) It has nothing to do with whether or not I'm currently having sex. (not much lately, but a girl can hope.)

If I say that for me to call myself a lesbian I would have to by and large continue to fit the above criteria, why is that transphobic?

[christie]

I have been following the conversation and can genuinely understand Kobi's frustration and disappointment in that the thread simply about being proud to be a lesbian as turned into another dismantling, redefining of a word.

Some may not agree, but I do see how "lesbian" has been marginalized in online BF communities. That I ID as femme yet openly admit attraction to other femmes has been met with less than open arms, mostly by masculine ID'd or transmen. That's not me being transphobic or a misandrist, but it is my personal experience.

I do think that defining lesbian does include who you fuck. I made some choices in my 20's to try and walk that hetero path. It was a choice. It didn't change that I was a lesbian; however, to me, I didn't get to claim being a lesbian because I had the legal rights and privileges associated with being a heterosexual. I didn't claim it because I wasn't getting the shit beat out of me for fucking women. I didn't claim it because I didn't get disowned/kicked out for fucking women. I didn't get to claim it because I wasn't living as one.

The unfortunate part of re-defining lesbian (to me) is that there are legalities attached to it - if I had the same rights as a heterosexual woman, it probably wouldn't matter so much that the persons claiming the ID might not actively fuck women. I think that as I came to live an authentic, true to myself life, I have become more protective of that descriptor. I have fought to claim it, both personally, socially and professionally.

I will say that I have never experienced so much interpretation, defining, re-interpretation, re-defining, dismantling, rebuilding, casting aside and reclaiming of descriptors as I have in the online BF communities. I don't see it in other queer online communities and I don't see it in my real life communities.

Jess and I attended a Melissa Etheridge concert last week. Holy cow - ten thousand or so folks, mostly lesbians. I saw a great many interactions, but not once did I hear a conversation about descriptors. (Some may not like my use of "descriptors" but that's the place in my life that IDing words fall) One might argue that it wasn't the venue for such conversations to take place, but in all of my real-time interactions with a great number of queers, OC (online communities) are the ONLY place it takes happens. The only time I have been involved with these types of conversations in real time is when I am in a group of folks who also participate in OC. Period. Many years of meaningful, raw conversations and not once can I recall if it mattered if one was female ID'd, masculine ID'd, femme, butch, etc. Femme and butch might have come into play if it was a conversation about what/who flips my switches, but none of what I call the overanalyzation of words.

I really do give less than a damn about how folks ID. The only IDs that matter to me are mine and Jess' - and the only time hers matters is when its being cast aside, erased or questioned.

I completely understand how it feels to be erased or feel made less than - lesbian HAS been dismissed in BF online communities and its because we lesbians allowed it to happen. Shame on me for not speaking louder. Shame on me for conceding space. Shame on me for being complacent.

Sometimes, I think I am just too comfortable in my skin.

This is just my take on it - your mileage may vary.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

If I say that for me to call myself a lesbian I would have to by and large continue to fit the above criteria, why is that transphobic?

i think that going out of one's way to defend or reclaim and ID that is changing usually has a reason. One is being defensive or wanting to take something back from a group or groups who one may feel has appropriated your ID. That generally means exclusion.

Here's a quote from a post made later in the thread by the OP:

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

So who is making this person feel invisible? Who is NOT like her? i am guessing maybe transfolk or people involved with them. Or perhaps male-ID'd or bisexuals -- not sure. But there is some group the poster is talking about.

[Turtle]

So, I've been going thru some stuff lately and a friend of mine gave me a few old school lesbian novels from the 1970s and 80s. At first, I was like "I dunno," but then I thought "Yeah, maybe I should revisit this time period, remembering the old women's bookstores that are almost all gone, Womankind Books, Naiad Press and the like when the publishing world was in such a different place and book for us, or any non-white non-hetero-normative group, were so hard to come by.

So, anyway, I'm reading the books and being thankful for those who have gone before me.



AND I feel a constant sorrow for wanting to be more active in the local community, but (I know it's my choice but) I won't step foot in our local Queer center because it used to be called The Lambda Center and now after much discussion, with all views being heard, they still chose to rename it The Gay and Lesbian Center. And I just won't participate in the erasure of folks like that.

[citybutch]

I have little to say... and much to contribute.

http://writingforstrangers.com/writi...emme-identity/

[citybutch]

So simplistic... BUT we did not always have the "label" lesbian....in fact we have had many labels we have embraced. And not always have lesbians embraced butch/femme identity. In fact, there was a time I can remember where butches were rejected as embracing male identity and male roles...

This is merely an observation.. and not a critique of how anyone identifies here...

I find community with you all....

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/lesbian.h...ures_1920-1970

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Martina

i think that going out of one's way to defend or reclaim and ID that is changing usually has a reason. One is being defensive or wanting to take something back from a group or groups who one may feel has appropriated your ID. That generally means exclusion. ...

..So who is making this person feel invisible? Who is NOT like her? i am guessing maybe transfolk or people involved with them. Or perhaps male-ID'd or bisexuals -- not sure. But there is some group the poster is talking about.

Martina, I asked a specific question. Why did you write this?:

"2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary.... Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia...."

The discussion is about lesbians. You haven't stated a reason why you would conclude that a discussion about lesbian ID taking place amongst women who feel that their lesbian ID is embattled "Probably (has) some transphobia". You've made an unsupported assumption. Why does a discussion about a female ID have to have something to do with males? ("transfolk, male ID'd... transphobia")

Is it possible to discuss lesbian pride without discussing males or male IDs?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Martina, I asked a specific question. Why did you write this?:

"2) It tends to have an agenda that is in part reactionary.... Here? Who knows? Probably some transphobia...."

The discussion is about lesbians. You haven't stated a reason why you would conclude that a discussion about lesbian ID taking place amongst women who feel that their lesbian ID is embattled "Probably (has) some transphobia". You've made an unsupported assumption. Why does a discussion about a female ID have to have something to do with males? ("transfolk, male ID'd... transphobia")

Is it possible to discuss lesbian pride without discussing males or male IDs?

That was my interpretation. i seriously don't know what else to say. i think that when one defends an ID, like being French, one is defending AGAINST something, like being an immigrant of African or Arab descent. That is what i meant. i don't know what else to say. i am sorry.

[Linus]

[Posting as a member]

Kobi, I hope if it's ok that I interject here. I don't want to take away something that is important for lesbian members and if I'm speaking out of turn, I apologize.

Originally Posted by Martina

That was my interpretation. i seriously don't know what else to say. i think that when one defends an ID, like being French, one is defending AGAINST something, like being an immigrant of African or Arab descent. That is what i meant. i don't know what else to say. i am sorry.

Martina, I'm a bit puzzled. I'm not sure where an association of claiming an identity automatically means that you're against something. I claim many identities: transguy, geek, Acadian, Canadian, immigrant, intelligent (or so I believe), middle-aged, etc.

But none of those mean that I'm against anyone who isn't in those categories. Just because someone identifies as lesbian (sexual identity) doesn't mean that they are automatically against trans-individuals (gender identity). To me, this kind of idea -- "us vs. them" -- is contrary and does nothing more but to divide the LGBT community as a whole. There are transwomen who are lesbians and transmen who are gay. By claiming those identities doesn't mean self-hatred.

Now, are there lesbians who dislike transmen and transwomen? Sure. But I do not believe that is what this discussion is about. It's about (and Kobi, please correct me if I'm wrong on this) reclaiming lesbian as a positive and proud title and not something that one should be ashamed of, least of all in one's own community.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Linus

[Posting as a member]

I'm not sure where an association of claiming an identity automatically means that you're against something.

It does not. Of course. Defending or reclaiming one might be taking a position against another. It often is the case. i have given examples.

Let's look at this quote -- from Kobi, whom i did not mean to offend by not using her name.

I am a freakin lesbian - one of those relic women who wants to be with women who want to be with other women.

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

Who MIGHT be making her feel like a guest in her OWN community? Perhaps someone NOT a "woman who wants to be with other women?" i am guessing. The possibilities of people who choose to ID as lesbian but are not women loving women are somewhat limited. i speculated.

There's a ton of research on identity formation, much of which talks about how it is created by defining oneself in opposition to the other, by disavowing another group. i think that's a normal way of thinking. But ID formation on a greater than individual level is sticky stuff. i used to be offended (as a woman) by definitions of femme that implied that a reconsidered and reconstructed femme femininity was somehow superior to that of straight women. Anyway, femme cultural products are full of such statements. Less so anymore.

My point is that ID formation can come out of disavowals of the other. It can disparage the other. Definitions that imply that straight women are less reflective of or transgressive in their femininity are examples.

But when you take it up a level to DEFENDING a supposedly beleaguered identity, you enter into a discourse that does more than potentially demean the other. The poor me stuff can lead to justifications for exclusion or worse. It's the rhetoric of oppression. The speakers may SOUND like victims, but they are justifying something else.

So i am not calling anyone here an oppressor. But this kind of discourse is dangerous. In any context.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Martina

It does not. Of course. Defending or reclaiming one might be taking a position against another. It often is the case. i have given examples.

Let's look at this quote -- from Kobi, whom i did not mean to offend by not using her name.



Who MIGHT be making her feel like a guest in her OWN community? Perhaps someone NOT a "woman who wants to be with other women?" i am guessing. The possibilities of people who choose to ID as lesbian but are not women loving women are somewhat limited. i speculated.

There's a ton of research on identity formation, much of which talks about how it is created by defining oneself in opposition to the other, by disavowing another group. i think that's a normal way of thinking. But ID formation on a greater than individual level is sticky stuff. i used to be offended (as a woman) by definitions of femme that implied that a reconsidered and reconstructed femme femininity was somehow superior to that of straight women. Anyway, femme cultural products are full of such statements. Less so anymore.

My point is that ID formation can come out of disavowals of the other. It can disparage the other. Definitions that imply that straight women are less reflective of or transgressive in their femininity are examples.

But when you take it up a level to DEFENDING a supposedly beleaguered identity, you enter into a discourse that does more than potentially demean the other. The poor me stuff can lead to justifications for exclusion or worse. It's the rhetoric of oppression. The speakers may SOUND like victims, but they are justifying something else.

So i am not calling anyone here an oppressor. But this kind of discourse is dangerous. In any context.

I can't speak for Kobi, but I can say unequivocally that when I use the word 'lesbian' to identify myself I have been met with some hostility from people who, in another time and place, would have certainly been called lesbians, and probably would have called themselves lesbians. In some circles, including b-f communities, calling oneself a lesbian is considered uncool, a relic from former times, and a word associated with people who would choose to oppress those who don't fit into a narrow definition of what it means to be a woman who has sex with and partners with other women. There have been lesbians who claim I can't be one because I'm a stonefemme, because I'm a leatherwoman, and because I partner with butch women. I very powerfully, emphatically, and crankily claim the label LESBIAN because I am one. F.U. to anyone who attempts to tell me otherwise.

There have been plenty of straight POCs who attempt to police the behaviours of LGBT POCs. Some have claimed that gayness is a white disease. Does that make LGBT POCs disavow their connection to their communities? Not usually, and yet that's a common response amongst those who might once have called themselves lesbians. Because some lesbians have attempted to police their (b-f, trans, leather), IDs, they eschew the use of the label. Some of the not-very-bright people who have challenged my lesbian ID have done so because they assume it must mean I'm a transphobe.

The reason I'm hammering this point with you Martina, is that there is not one place in my general definition or in my self ID that has anything to do with males or transphobia. You brought that accusation into the thread spuriously, and you have yet to support the accusation with any quote. You merely assert that feeling defended around the use of this, in my opinion, embattled ID, must have something to do with transphobia. This is inflammatory because in my experience, unsupported accusations of transphobia are sometimes used to shut down conversations about lesbian ID.

I'm a prickly, argumentative person when I get riled up. Attempts to shut me down don't work very well, but others who are not as verbally aggressive as I am will walk away from those conversations where their lesbian ID has been mocked or denigrated feeling disempowered and invalidated. This is the reason why 'Lesbian Pride' is a topic of importance to me. Unless one is foolish enough to personally challenge my ID, there's nothing "dangerous" about this discourse.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Martina

It does not. Of course. Defending or reclaiming one might be taking a position against another. It often is the case. i have given examples.

Let's look at this quote -- from Kobi, whom i did not mean to offend by not using her name.



Who MIGHT be making her feel like a guest in her OWN community? Perhaps someone NOT a "woman who wants to be with other women?" i am guessing. The possibilities of people who choose to ID as lesbian but are not women loving women are somewhat limited. i speculated.

There's a ton of research on identity formation, much of which talks about how it is created by defining oneself in opposition to the other, by disavowing another group. i think that's a normal way of thinking. But ID formation on a greater than individual level is sticky stuff. i used to be offended (as a woman) by definitions of femme that implied that a reconsidered and reconstructed femme femininity was somehow superior to that of straight women. Anyway, femme cultural products are full of such statements. Less so anymore.

My point is that ID formation can come out of disavowals of the other. It can disparage the other. Definitions that imply that straight women are less reflective of or transgressive in their femininity are examples.

But when you take it up a level to DEFENDING a supposedly beleaguered identity, you enter into a discourse that does more than potentially demean the other. The poor me stuff can lead to justifications for exclusion or worse. It's the rhetoric of oppression. The speakers may SOUND like victims, but they are justifying something else.

So i am not calling anyone here an oppressor. But this kind of discourse is dangerous. In any context.

"The rheotoric of oppression. Poor me stuff. SOUND like victims."

Wow powerful stuff. Sends a big message. In the midst of what is going on here, it is plain and simple deflection. And, it is further evidence of misogyny, sexism, and homophobia being alive and well in our own community.

Lesbians, like me, have a reason or many reasons to feel the way we do. The danger is in remaining silent thereby being complicit in our own victimization.

There are kids out there, like me. Who will speak for them? Who will be role models for them? Who will help them forge their identities and their pride and their heritage?

I dont have to take away from another or be in opposition to another just to be who I am. But I will be damned if I will stand by silently while other groups are doing it to me.

Funny things those semantics huh?

[apretty]

When E and I were at a concert a few weeks ago there were about a thousand lesbians, I sat next to a couple who were nice enough--They weren't "like us" in the sense that there wasn't any B/F going on but they were sweet and in fact invited me/us to a swim party some time this month...

(*Of course I broke the ice by asking if either of them had spotted their therapists, yet and while E kept his distance as he's apt to do, I had two temporary BFFs though by first appearance I am sure they didn't know what to make of me in my glam-ass maxi dress and gold accessories.)

In the course of our short conversations between songs, my seat-neighbor made it clear that she was glad that a "mannnnn" wasn't sitting next to her and made a sound and face in disgust. I countered with my standard head-tilt and vague puzzled look followed with half-smile to acknowledge her discomfort with men but to also let her know (hopefully) that I didn't share in her thinking.

Of course this is just a single instance but it does speak to the sort of 'phobia' that we've been hinting at, I think. A maleness phobia/distrust (that possibly butches bring to the table by appearance/manner/what have you...) I mean, it's one thing for a Femme to bring her "femininity" but that's ultimately accepted because it's less threatening... Easily dismissed.

So, I guess I don't have a big, huge point except to speak to my experience in "lesbian" space as it's difficult to additionally, have my queer self understood...

And I am not blind to how the lesbian identity has been disparaged over the years (online and elsewhere)... Which has me thinking about women and legitimacy and this devaluing of "lesbian" is more of the same devaluing of another being deemed "female". Which really, that's the part that keeps me from abandoning "lesbian" altogether because I refuse to be a part of that women othering women.

Forgive if I make less than total sense--I should have been in bed hours ago, please feel free to request clarification. Thanks.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Linus

[Posting as a member]

Kobi, I hope if it's ok that I interject here. I don't want to take away something that is important for lesbian members and if I'm speaking out of turn, I apologize.



Martina, I'm a bit puzzled. I'm not sure where an association of claiming an identity automatically means that you're against something. I claim many identities: transguy, geek, Acadian, Canadian, immigrant, intelligent (or so I believe), middle-aged, etc.

But none of those mean that I'm against anyone who isn't in those categories. Just because someone identifies as lesbian (sexual identity) doesn't mean that they are automatically against trans-individuals (gender identity). To me, this kind of idea -- "us vs. them" -- is contrary and does nothing more but to divide the LGBT community as a whole. There are transwomen who are lesbians and transmen who are gay. By claiming those identities doesn't mean self-hatred.

Now, are there lesbians who dislike transmen and transwomen? Sure. But I do not believe that is what this discussion is about. It's about (and Kobi, please correct me if I'm wrong on this) reclaiming lesbian as a positive and proud title and not something that one should be ashamed of, least of all in one's own community.

Linus,

Again thank you for being supportive. Ironic how transmen "get it". No drama, no rudeness. They seem to just get it.

I do, however, take exception to "lesbian" being downgraded to a "sexual identity".

For some of us, it is not a just sexual identity. It is something special, unique, and very specific that defines who we are at the core of our beings and, in many cases, what we stand for. It is way bigger than a sexual identity.

And reclaiming lesbian, minus all the qualifiers and the politics that spur them, is about pride and self respect. It is about taking back something that is being dismantled and parcelled out amongst other groups for their own purposes who seem to have little regard for those they are affecting.

Lesbian is not less than, a lesser part of, outdated, not enough or any of the other dismissal and derogatory things that are happening around it.

And, it is about opening your mouth when you see it happening, calling it what it is, and making it clear it is not appreciated or acceptable. What is happening is hurtful, divisive, dismissive, oppressive, offensive, and simply rude.

[ScandalAndy]

I'm a lesbian, I'm proud to be a lesbian, and I'm a little tired of the last few threads I've checked out being turned into a discussion of what "lesbian" means, followed by lots of people trying to reinvent the wheel by asking "well what about this situation? Do they count?". What the heck? Why is that necessary? I want to come here and support others and feel supported, not questioned.


Is it very difficult to accept that the identifier of "lesbian" can apply to many different people with different interpretations, and that we can all find community with one another, even if we don't share the same definition of the word?


I'm so frustrated with the threads right now and I personally feel like we can't get more than two or three people together without it somehow turning into a need to have a debate or prove a point. I really want BFP to be a place where I can find support and community, and lately I feel like all I find is another opportunity to get really defensive. Maybe I'm just having a bad day, but maybe it's more than that.

I interpreted this thread as Kobi's attempt to say "hey, I'm here. Anybody else?" without the drive to have a big analytical debate. I"m seeing a lot of posturing and defensiveness and that makes me really sad. Why is this happening?


Again, let me reiterate that this is my personal opinion, you can agree or disagree with me as you see fit, and I respect your right to do so.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by citybutch

I have little to say... and much to contribute.

http://writingforstrangers.com/writi...emme-identity/

Originally Posted by citybutch

So simplistic... BUT we did not always have the "label" lesbian....in fact we have had many labels we have embraced. And not always have lesbians embraced butch/femme identity. In fact, there was a time I can remember where butches were rejected as embracing male identity and male roles...

This is merely an observation.. and not a critique of how anyone identifies here...

I find community with you all....

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/lesbian.h...ures_1920-1970

Thank you for these interesting links. I learned some stuff.

At the risk of being repetitive, which is getting as tiring for me as I am sure it is getting for you, this thread is NOT about defining lesbian or qualifying what a lesbian is, or any other derivative of lesbian.

The intent of this thread was for lesbians who identify a certain way to talk about issues related to their reality.

So far, it has been anything but. And the trend continues.

We have a butch zone, a femme zone, a trans zone, and a little late to the party lesbian zone. Within each zone is a heck of a lot of empty space. Is there some reason people have the need to continue to corrupt this particular thread into what they need it to be rather than what it is for?

Want to be supportive? Please do so.

Want to interject your own definitions, realities, need to meld blend blur? To me, that is a deliberate attempt to turn this into something other than the repeatedly stated intent. It is behavior that smacks of fear and feeling threatened. So, again, what is so threatening about lesbians reclaiming their voices and their power as a force in this community?