OCCUPY WALL STREET

[JAGG]

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by JAGG

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Let's say a tornado hit your neighborhood and yours was the only house
left standing.
Let's also say that you were surrounded by poor people who live in trailers.

Your town was hit hard and red cross cant get through the wreckage
for two weeks or so.
Do you hang a sign on your door that says I'm prepared sorry you are not?
Do you invite them in and school them on what you think they should have done,to be more like you?
Do you share your three weeks worth of food with these people or say sorry
that's for me? Hell ,you don't even know them so it ain't your problem they can find someone else to mooch from?
Seriously ,there are many things in life
that cant be prepared for, with money or planning alone.
Maybe you will find that out one day and your tune will change.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Dude

Let's say a tornado hit your neighborhood and yours was the only house
left standing.
Let's also say that you were surrounded by poor people who live in trailers.

Your town was hit hard and red cross cant get through the wreckage
for two weeks or so.
Do you hang a sign on your door that says I'm prepared sorry you are not?
Do you invite them in and school them on what you think they should have done,to be more like you?
Do you share your three weeks worth of food with these people or say sorry
that's for me? Hell ,you don't even know them so it ain't your problem they can find someone else to mooch from?
Seriously ,there are many things in life
that cant be prepared for, with money or planning alone.
Maybe you will find that out one day and your tune will change.

Go back and read my post. I wasn't talking about what I would do on a personal level , I am refering to what tax payers should fund as far as gov, programs what's an individual responsibilty what's gov. responsibility.
When you are done rereading my post, tell me where in my post I said we shouldn't help people of catastrophic events, also show me where it says I wouldn't help a neighbor in need. "Maybe I will find out one day and my tune will change"? Is that YOUR attempt to invite me in, and school me, on what you think I should have done to be more like you?
Yes somethings in life one can't be prepared with money or planning alone, somethings become more expensive than you could have ever planned for. But some can!!! I am saying when you can , you should. If you opt not to it's your choice, but don't look for people to bail you out when you make the wrong choice. It's not fair to people who opted to sacrifice new shoes, a new car, a plasma tv, pack their lunch not eat out everyday, to put money aside to pay for extra insurance. It's wrong to shrug your personal responsibility and expect others to pick up your slack, when your shrugging causes you dismay.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by JAGG

Go back and read my post. I wasn't talking about what I would do on a personal level , I am refering to what tax payers should fund as far as gov, programs what's an individual responsibilty what's gov. responsibility.
When you are done rereading my post, tell me where in my post I said we shouldn't help people of catastrophic events, also show me where it says I wouldn't help a neighbor in need. "Maybe I will find out one day and my tune will change"? Is that YOUR attempt to invite me in, and school me, on what you think I should have done to be more like you?
Yes somethings in life one can't be prepared with money or planning alone, somethings become more expensive than you could have ever planned for. But some can!!! I am saying when you can , you should. If you opt not to it's your choice, but don't look for people to bail you out when you make the wrong choice. It's not fair to people who opted to sacrifice new shoes, a new car, a plasma tv, pack their lunch not eat out everyday, to put money aside to pay for extra insurance. It's wrong to shrug your personal responsibility and expect others to pick up your slack, when your shrugging causes you dismay.

I know exactly what your post said. I thought maybe if I took it to a more personal level you would think about it all, with a more open mind.

If I had people calling me ignorant and lacking empathy I would try to be a bit more teachable.
So, no you and I are nothing alike. I'm cool with that.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by JAGG

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Jagg, I know this won't change your view I do feel that I need/want to speak up a dissenting opinion to what you say (as a former fiscal conservative type).

While it certainly is up to each person to ensure they have a safety net, the challenge is what if their safety net is completely gone because the job they had went *poof*, they've used all their savings and nothing is left? What if they went to school to get a decent job, can't find one now that the market is tanked and have an obscene amount of student loans where they are expected to pay $500 a month from the start? Where does this person turn? To me this isn't about bad choices (not any more). It's about events beyond our own control. I've lost jobs and been out of work for a few months but I cannot imagine being out of work for 2+ years. I don't understand how that's an individuals fault.

I would also like to add that we don't have the close-knit communities like we used to. There has been a cultural shift to remote communities and given the discussion currently on this site about "Internet Duplicity" it's hard to be able to ask or give support when faced with challenges like that. So where does the individual turn to at this point? Middle class has been eroded for years (this has been an ongoing discussion in Canada for years -- I think I remember first seeing this in the mid-90s in the Toronto Star or on the CBC).

On the flip side, banks and large industry (most notably the American car industry) claimed that they needed the money to help individuals stay afloat. They got the money and... nothing. Small business, who cannot stay afloat against the likes of Walmart et al., are going under and cannot get loans in a poor market. People looking for work have a market that is impossible to get into. And often, if they manage to get jobs it's at minimum wage (if they are lucky). Individuals, who were willing to work out new payment plans, were ignored by banks. I know of one woman who worked 2 full time jobs for her restructured mortgage program. The bank kept telling her different amounts for her restructured program and every time she paid she was out by x amount (even after asking 3 times for verification as to the amount and when it was due!). They foreclosed on her recently. How is this her fault? Who does she turn to?

I know that this isn't always because of someone not willing to do the work or not having a safety net. I know this because K spent nearly 2 years trying to find work after obtaining a well-regarded Masters degree in a field that is in need of people: social work. She sent out thousands of resumes over the course of that time and got two call backs. Most of the time people didn't even say "We got your resume and will keep it on file" or some other form of acknowledgement. We're very lucky right now: I make a very decent salary and she, during that 2 years, worked for her dad. She managed to get a temporary job with the VA but that has a lot of uncertainty as it could end at any time.

Now, if I lost my job would we survive? Probably not. My savings is enough to pay off everything I owe but losing my job would mean more than that. I'd have to leave the country and probably live with relatives. For me, this whole fight is personal. While I can't be at the rallies I would love to because the reality is... we are the 99%.

I don't think this is a question of living beyond one's means but rather an extended Depression -- and I think it's time we said that it is a Depression. This isn't an extended Recession. This is a fundamental change in the way that the markets work. At one time, these kinds of events caused individuals to rethink and get creative (the old adage of "necessity is the mother of invention") but this feels very different. In a society where mass consumerism has reached it's peak and saturation, and where box stores and the likes of Amazon rule, I wonder if small business and recreation of industries can still exist.

So while some may have mismanaged or misplanned or spent beyond their means, given the size of what is being faced here in the US I don't think that it's true of the majority.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by JAGG

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.

Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Jagg -- Seriously?

You are equating investing in a financial market over a person who is not prepared for an accident or illness?

Imagine this. I had amazing health insurance. This covered all of my treatments and my surgeries, of which I worked really hard through the years to have this great job which gave me great health insurance. 5 years later, I am without a job and my cancer returns. I no longer have insurance and I am no longer employed, yet -- I thought I had prepared for my future, but the fucking economy dropped and I lost everything, including my job. There are no jobs available to me - because the unemployment rate is HIGH! Not to mention, I cannot afford my mortgage payment anymore and did I mention, the credit card companies raised my interest from 10% to 29% and they got away with it? Oh, I did have a savings, but I had to drain it in order to save my life for the moment - Did not save my home though! And my kids, my babies are hungry.

How can you possibly equate a risky financial decision - investments always are - with people who get ill or lose their jobs? And let us not forget about where people grow up and what is available to those people. There is no such thing as fair education in this fucking country of ours. Or fair jobs. While our country likes to say they treat all people equal - this is just bullshit. I stand a better fucking chance at getting a job over a person of color, even if they are better qualified than I am.

What about the 10's of thousands of homeless vets? Yes, homeless men and women who gave their lives and souls to this country, are left to rot and are dying of hunger. Is this their fault?

Car insurance? There is no bank who will loan you a car without insurance. You cannot register a car (paid for or not) without insurance. This is RARE when this happens.

How can you say this? Where is your empathy?

Julie

[JAGG]

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by JAGG

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?

[MsMerrick]

These are not my photos, but they resemble and look, like many of the people I saw when I was down there.
This give s you a good feel for what and who is there:
portraits of people occupying Wall Street

This is also good...
14 Reasons People are Occupying Wall Street

I have to go to work now. I am lucky that I have a job. No health Insurance, and no raise for over 10 years, but its a job....
I know so many people, falling through cracks..They are no longer cracks, they are fissures.. These aren't people that didn't work, or that did drugs, or misbehaved in general.. Just ordinary working people, that are now homeless.. and trying really hard to find work .. It just doesn't exist ..
I don't have time to go point by point ,but 1 ) Bankruptcies due to health problems, is NOT limited to those without Insurance, quite the contrary. 2 ) the idea that anyone can afford some kind of Insurance is ludicrous, and no way fits the reality., ..I really have to go, maybe later..

[JAGG]

[QUOTE=Linus;433315]A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?[/QUOTE
You can pick a million and one situations and say that's an exception, what about that person. I have a huge problem with people run credit cards up and want there debts forgiven. Who read sign and accept the terms of a mortgage they know they can't afford. Just because you are approved for 175,000 dollars doesn't mean you can afford it. Then when they fall behind go into foreclosure they want to be bailed out. That is not fair to the people who bought the 80,00 dollar house in an older not as nice neighborhood without a pool granite countertops, because they knew they couldn't afford it at that time. I'm not talking someone who has a brain tumor removed and is brain damaged from it. Not talking about diabled. Or something toatally out of your control.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by JAGG

You can pick a million and one situations and say that's an exception, what about that person. I have a huge problem with people run credit cards up and want there debts forgiven. Who read sign and accept the terms of a mortgage they know they can't afford. Just because you are approved for 175,000 dollars doesn't mean you can afford it. Then when they fall behind go into foreclosure they want to be bailed out. That is not fair to the people who bought the 80,00 dollar house in an older not as nice neighborhood without a pool granite countertops, because they knew they couldn't afford it at that time. I'm not talking someone who has a brain tumor removed and is brain damaged from it. Not talking about diabled. Or something toatally out of your control.

Totally get that. But the way that I read your post (and perhaps it's my interpretation) is that EVERYONE who is at OWS or in need fits into the "stupid" choices category. As I posted, a few min ago, it often feels like ALL individuals (both those with not-so-great choices and those with circumstantial situations) are being thrown under the bus. Certainly it's being done by various parts of the media and others. We often focus, IMO, too much on the "poor choices" and not the ones that truly need help.

But that said, to me, there is a point where even the "poor choices" becomes something out of their control. Do we always say "You sucked at choices and we will never help you"? Is there a point where we say "You made a poor choice but still need help. Let's see what we can do?" (this questions are for everyone)

[atomiczombie]

Jagg,

I just want to say that when my ex-wife and I got together I had 2 credit cards and a total of $300 debt between them. By the time we split up, between my 2 cards we were about $12,000 in debt. There are many reasons, part of which is that she wanted to spend spend spend and we argued about it, and I unfortunately gave in way too much because I hadn't learned to stand up for myself back then. She was also someone who would never back down from an argument, and had I not backed down our argument would just go on and on. I gave in because she wore me down. My bad.

Then she got laid off from her job in the mortgage dept at B of A in Concord, CA. That was in 2003. I was the only one working, and I made about $12-13 per hour. She went on unemployment, and our monthly income plummeted. I sold my Harley to pay bills. We had an apartment, a kid, and a car payment. We also were paying COBRA for my wife's healthcare since losing her job, which was 100s of dollars more per month. We ended up getting behind on our bills and paying for basic things like groceries with my credit cards. Her credit was so bad that she didn't have any credit cards. She refused to allow me to ask my parents for financial help. Well, I say allow because that was about fight that there was no way for me to win. She was verbally and emotionally abusive to me, and very controlling.

When I finally left her after years of taking this abuse, she decided she wasn't going to pay her half of my credit card debt. She said that would count for my child support. Because we had missed payments, my rate was 30%. Before I had been with my ex-wife, I had excellent credit and was responsible with my money. I hadn't anticipated that things would end up this way. I had mistakenly thought that she would get another job soon and we would climb out of this financial hole. Instead, she decided not to look for another job and just take some classes to gain some more skills. She stayed on unemployment for a year. It wasn't until the end of that year that I left her, because she couldn't get by w/o my income. We had a child. I wasn't comfortable leaving them w/o an income that would sustain their basic needs.

When I left my ex-wife, I was making $13/hr and couldn't afford to pay much more than the minimum payments, but I always paid a little more just to try to get it paid down. I had a small dive of an apartment and no car payments. I got by ok, but at the rate I was going, it would have taken me decades to pay it off. I was faithful with my payments. I was never late or missed any of them. I called my credit card companies asking them to lower my rates. B of A told me I had to make all my payments on time for 6 months and then they would decrease it. 6 months came and went and I was still being charged 29.99%. Same with my Citibank card. No matter how many payments I made on time, neither bank would lower my rates. My parents ended up paying off my cards after a few years, because they saw how ridiculous my situation was.

That is how a lot of people end up with piles of debt they have no way to pay back. Yes, you could say I am at fault because of the choices I made. However, I wasn't able to anticipate how it would all turn out. I was in a bad marriage to someone I shouldn't have been with. I didn't see all the red flags ahead of time, because I had grown up with years of abuse and wasn't able to see those red flags. I was naive about a lot of things. I learned a lot of difficult lessons. I guess that is part of growing up. I now have zero credit card debt. I never use my cards under any circumstances. If I want something I save for it and if I can't save for it, then I don't need it. I am on disability so I am very poor.

People get into a lot of debt for a variety of reasons. I think it's unfair to assume that you know all the ins and outs of a situation just on the face of it. People are human and make mistakes. That doesn't mean that the system isn't stacked against them and inherently unfair. It is.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Jagg,

I just want to say that when my ex-wife and I got together I had 2 credit cards and a total of $300 debt between them. By the time we split up, between my 2 cards we were about $12,000 in debt. There are many reasons, part of which is that she wanted to spend spend spend and we argued about it, and I unfortunately gave in way too much because I hadn't learned to stand up for myself back then. She was also someone who would never back down from an argument, and had I not backed down our argument would just go on and on. I gave in because she wore me down. My bad.

Then she got laid off from her job in the mortgage dept at B of A in Concord, CA. That was in 2003. I was the only one working, and I made about $12-13 per hour. She went on unemployment, and our monthly income plummeted. I sold my Harley to pay bills. We had an apartment, a kid, and a car payment. We also were paying COBRA for my wife's healthcare since losing her job, which was 100s of dollars more per month. We ended up getting behind on our bills and paying for basic things like groceries with my credit cards. Her credit was so bad that she didn't have any credit cards. She refused to allow me to ask my parents for financial help. Well, I say allow because that was about fight that there was no way for me to win. She was verbally and emotionally abusive to me, and very controlling.

When I finally left her after years of taking this abuse, she decided she wasn't going to pay her half of my credit card debt. She said that would count for my child support. Because we had missed payments, my rate was 30%. Before I had been with my ex-wife, I had excellent credit and was responsible with my money. I hadn't anticipated that things would end up this way. I had mistakenly thought that she would get another job soon and we would climb out of this financial hole. Instead, she decided not to look for another job and just take some classes to gain some more skills. She stayed on unemployment for a year. It wasn't until the end of that year that I left her, because she couldn't get by w/o my income. We had a child. I wasn't comfortable leaving them w/o an income that would sustain their basic needs.

When I left my ex-wife, I was making $13/hr and couldn't afford to pay much more than the minimum payments, but I always paid a little more just to try to get it paid down. I had a small dive of an apartment and no car payments. I got by ok, but at the rate I was going, it would have taken me decades to pay it off. I was faithful with my payments. I was never late or missed any of them. I called my credit card companies asking them to lower my rates. B of A told me I had to make all my payments on time for 6 months and then they would decrease it. 6 months came and went and I was still being charged 29.99%. Same with my Citibank card. No matter how many payments I made on time, neither bank would lower my rates. My parents ended up paying off my cards after a few years, because they saw how ridiculous my situation was.

That is how a lot of people end up with piles of debt they have no way to pay back. Yes, you could say I am at fault because of the choices I made. However, I wasn't able to anticipate how it would all turn out. I was in a bad marriage to someone I shouldn't have been with. I didn't see all the red flags ahead of time, because I had grown up with years of abuse and wasn't able to see those red flags. I was naive about a lot of things. I learned a lot of difficult lessons. I guess that is part of growing up. I now have zero credit share redit card debt. I never use my cards under any circumstances. If I want something I save for it and if I can't save for it, then I don't need it. I am on disability so I am very poor.

People get into a lot of debt for a variety of reasons. I think it's unfair to assume that you know all the ins and outs of a situation just on the face of it. People are human and make mistakes. That doesn't mean that the system isn't stacked against them and inherently unfair. It is.

I totally understand your situation. I had certain things happen to me and had to start over from scratch twice in my life. Sorry that happened to you. It sucks but it builds character.

[JAGG]

[QUOTE=Linus;433315]A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?[/QUOTE
You can pick a million and one situations and say that's an exception, what about that person. I have a huge problem with people run credit cards up and want there debts forgiven. Who read sign and accept the terms of a mortgage they know they can't afford. Just because you are approved for 175,000 dollars doesn't mean you can afford it. Then when they fall behind go into foreclosure they want to be bailed out. That is not fair to the people who bought the 80,00 dollar house in an older not as nice neighborhood without a pool granite countertops, because they knew they couldn't afford it at that time. I'm not talking someone who has a brain tumor removed and is brain damaged from it. Not talking about diabled. Or something toatally out of your control.

[JAGG]

Its easy to have a car and no insurance. I buy a car off my neighbor. I have 30 days in the state of Oklahoma to tag it. I don't need proof of insurance until I tag it. I could go 29 days without.

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by JAGG

Its easy to have a car and no insurance. I buy a car off my neighbor. I have 30 days in the state of Oklahoma to tag it. I don't need proof of insurance until I tag it. I could go 29 days without.

What is this in reference to Jagg?

[atomiczombie]

This is a great article about income inequality in the US:

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesam...er/wealth.html

It's really worth reading, and illustrates how wealth is being squeezed out of the middle class and into the hands of the top 1%.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

What is this in reference to Jagg?

That reference was from an earlier post of Julie's. I was using my cell phone . It has voice to text, but it's too diffcult to copy and paste. Sorry for the confusion.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by JAGG

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

I am sorry if you feel misunderstood - I read your words a few times and this is how I understood them. It came off as a great lacking of empathy.

I do have a question though... How do you really know if someone is being lazy or as you say just stupidity? And how do you know if it is in fact their fault? Honestly - We can assume many things and by making such assumptions, people are hurt.

What constitutes poor choices? And who are we to judge, they are poor choices?

And why is it based on how you feel? Could your feelings be wrong, based on bias or wrong information?

I believe this is how we get in trouble in this society - we make life changing calls for people, based on our own emotions and logic - we can certainly be skewed.

Julie

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Julie

I am sorry if you feel misunderstood - I read your words a few times and this is how I understood them. It came off as a great lacking of empathy.

I do have a question though... How do you really know if someone is being lazy or as you say just stupidity? And how do you know if it is in fact their fault? Honestly - We can assume many things and by making such assumptions, people are hurt.

What constitutes poor choices? And who are we to judge, they are poor choices?

And why is it based on how you feel? Could your feelings be wrong, based on bias or wrong information?

I believe this is how we get in trouble in this society - we make life changing calls for people, based on our own emotions and logic - we can certainly be skewed.

Julie

Of course my feelings could be wrong. But I'm not someone who would shoot off my mouth unless I had facts and real life experience , and my experiences have caused me to render the conclusions that my feelings and opinions are based on. I in no way ever think I'm right and someone else is wrong. I'm simply stating the truth as I know it,what my experience has been and why my view may differ from yours. You know I love ya Julie. I know I pushed your buttons so I'm going to try to unpush them by explaining what I mean a little better. Because I know when there is a passionate debate people will tend to read into things and tempers flair . So here's a little better explaination. Keep in mind you may not agree with me. There is a hurricane coming been getting reports 2 weeks solid. Everyone is told to evacuate. But instead of doing the right thing, some guy decides I'm not going to do the right thing, even though I'm taking a risk and I know what could happen, I'm gonna stick it out take my chances. The worst occurs. Now he has had warning after warning, 3 days of mandatory evacuations. Even had sheriffs going door to door in case someone was home bound. He still stayed. Now he is in a bad mess, he is forced to the roof top because the house is completely flooded. He is watching home after home swept away and he knows he screwed up. So he calls 911. Now the police the fireman and paramedics have to risk their lives , in white cap rapids, of rancid water full of virus's , bacteria dead animals you name it , to save this guy. Should the tax payers have to foot the bill for the rescue? No way!!! He should. Am I saying he shouldn't be rescued. Hell no I'm not saying that. Did I say he deserves to die , hell no didn't say that either. What I'm saying is he should have to pay for his poor choice, not us. And if a fireman or policeman dies trying to save him, he should be charged with involuntary manslaughter on top of paying for the cost of the rescue service. It's not fair to have to pay for someone else because they made poor choices. I don't agree with it. If that makes me lack empathy so be it. What I can't for the life of me understand is why people think we should. Why people think no one should have to take responsibilty for their actions boggles my mind. You don't think that is a good definition of stupitidy, staying even though you knew you should leave? I do .That was a poor choice . you make call me judgemental I call it a fact. That was plain old fashion stupid, and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Now let me guess what's gong happen. Someone is going to read this post. Get pissed and come up with some crazy scenerio that has nothing to do with what I am talking about then try to accuse me of meaning something I never even came close to thinking . Like this , well JAGG what if a steel mill blows up and 50 houses catch on fire, or what if a train derails and spews toxic liquid into a neighborhood, or a gas line explodes and burns up a nursing home, are you going make those people pay to be rescued too. Lets hope your house never catches on fire you never need to be rescued. It's clear you have never had any thing bad ever happen to you and you don't know what it's like to have your arms and legs cut off and need a paramedic. My 3rd cousin didnt tie his shoes one day and tripped on his lace fell down the steps broke his hip had to call a Paramedic are you saying that's his fault and he has to pay for his bad choice?????? I guess you would just leave him there to die. Because he didn't make the same choice you would have, he is just plain old fashion stupid and deserves to die. I think you're the stupid one.