OCCUPY WALL STREET

[JAGG]

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by JAGG

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?

[MsMerrick]

These are not my photos, but they resemble and look, like many of the people I saw when I was down there.
This give s you a good feel for what and who is there:
portraits of people occupying Wall Street

This is also good...
14 Reasons People are Occupying Wall Street

I have to go to work now. I am lucky that I have a job. No health Insurance, and no raise for over 10 years, but its a job....
I know so many people, falling through cracks..They are no longer cracks, they are fissures.. These aren't people that didn't work, or that did drugs, or misbehaved in general.. Just ordinary working people, that are now homeless.. and trying really hard to find work .. It just doesn't exist ..
I don't have time to go point by point ,but 1 ) Bankruptcies due to health problems, is NOT limited to those without Insurance, quite the contrary. 2 ) the idea that anyone can afford some kind of Insurance is ludicrous, and no way fits the reality., ..I really have to go, maybe later..

[JAGG]

[QUOTE=Linus;433315]A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?[/QUOTE
You can pick a million and one situations and say that's an exception, what about that person. I have a huge problem with people run credit cards up and want there debts forgiven. Who read sign and accept the terms of a mortgage they know they can't afford. Just because you are approved for 175,000 dollars doesn't mean you can afford it. Then when they fall behind go into foreclosure they want to be bailed out. That is not fair to the people who bought the 80,00 dollar house in an older not as nice neighborhood without a pool granite countertops, because they knew they couldn't afford it at that time. I'm not talking someone who has a brain tumor removed and is brain damaged from it. Not talking about diabled. Or something toatally out of your control.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by JAGG

You can pick a million and one situations and say that's an exception, what about that person. I have a huge problem with people run credit cards up and want there debts forgiven. Who read sign and accept the terms of a mortgage they know they can't afford. Just because you are approved for 175,000 dollars doesn't mean you can afford it. Then when they fall behind go into foreclosure they want to be bailed out. That is not fair to the people who bought the 80,00 dollar house in an older not as nice neighborhood without a pool granite countertops, because they knew they couldn't afford it at that time. I'm not talking someone who has a brain tumor removed and is brain damaged from it. Not talking about diabled. Or something toatally out of your control.

Totally get that. But the way that I read your post (and perhaps it's my interpretation) is that EVERYONE who is at OWS or in need fits into the "stupid" choices category. As I posted, a few min ago, it often feels like ALL individuals (both those with not-so-great choices and those with circumstantial situations) are being thrown under the bus. Certainly it's being done by various parts of the media and others. We often focus, IMO, too much on the "poor choices" and not the ones that truly need help.

But that said, to me, there is a point where even the "poor choices" becomes something out of their control. Do we always say "You sucked at choices and we will never help you"? Is there a point where we say "You made a poor choice but still need help. Let's see what we can do?" (this questions are for everyone)

[atomiczombie]

Jagg,

I just want to say that when my ex-wife and I got together I had 2 credit cards and a total of $300 debt between them. By the time we split up, between my 2 cards we were about $12,000 in debt. There are many reasons, part of which is that she wanted to spend spend spend and we argued about it, and I unfortunately gave in way too much because I hadn't learned to stand up for myself back then. She was also someone who would never back down from an argument, and had I not backed down our argument would just go on and on. I gave in because she wore me down. My bad.

Then she got laid off from her job in the mortgage dept at B of A in Concord, CA. That was in 2003. I was the only one working, and I made about $12-13 per hour. She went on unemployment, and our monthly income plummeted. I sold my Harley to pay bills. We had an apartment, a kid, and a car payment. We also were paying COBRA for my wife's healthcare since losing her job, which was 100s of dollars more per month. We ended up getting behind on our bills and paying for basic things like groceries with my credit cards. Her credit was so bad that she didn't have any credit cards. She refused to allow me to ask my parents for financial help. Well, I say allow because that was about fight that there was no way for me to win. She was verbally and emotionally abusive to me, and very controlling.

When I finally left her after years of taking this abuse, she decided she wasn't going to pay her half of my credit card debt. She said that would count for my child support. Because we had missed payments, my rate was 30%. Before I had been with my ex-wife, I had excellent credit and was responsible with my money. I hadn't anticipated that things would end up this way. I had mistakenly thought that she would get another job soon and we would climb out of this financial hole. Instead, she decided not to look for another job and just take some classes to gain some more skills. She stayed on unemployment for a year. It wasn't until the end of that year that I left her, because she couldn't get by w/o my income. We had a child. I wasn't comfortable leaving them w/o an income that would sustain their basic needs.

When I left my ex-wife, I was making $13/hr and couldn't afford to pay much more than the minimum payments, but I always paid a little more just to try to get it paid down. I had a small dive of an apartment and no car payments. I got by ok, but at the rate I was going, it would have taken me decades to pay it off. I was faithful with my payments. I was never late or missed any of them. I called my credit card companies asking them to lower my rates. B of A told me I had to make all my payments on time for 6 months and then they would decrease it. 6 months came and went and I was still being charged 29.99%. Same with my Citibank card. No matter how many payments I made on time, neither bank would lower my rates. My parents ended up paying off my cards after a few years, because they saw how ridiculous my situation was.

That is how a lot of people end up with piles of debt they have no way to pay back. Yes, you could say I am at fault because of the choices I made. However, I wasn't able to anticipate how it would all turn out. I was in a bad marriage to someone I shouldn't have been with. I didn't see all the red flags ahead of time, because I had grown up with years of abuse and wasn't able to see those red flags. I was naive about a lot of things. I learned a lot of difficult lessons. I guess that is part of growing up. I now have zero credit card debt. I never use my cards under any circumstances. If I want something I save for it and if I can't save for it, then I don't need it. I am on disability so I am very poor.

People get into a lot of debt for a variety of reasons. I think it's unfair to assume that you know all the ins and outs of a situation just on the face of it. People are human and make mistakes. That doesn't mean that the system isn't stacked against them and inherently unfair. It is.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Jagg,

I just want to say that when my ex-wife and I got together I had 2 credit cards and a total of $300 debt between them. By the time we split up, between my 2 cards we were about $12,000 in debt. There are many reasons, part of which is that she wanted to spend spend spend and we argued about it, and I unfortunately gave in way too much because I hadn't learned to stand up for myself back then. She was also someone who would never back down from an argument, and had I not backed down our argument would just go on and on. I gave in because she wore me down. My bad.

Then she got laid off from her job in the mortgage dept at B of A in Concord, CA. That was in 2003. I was the only one working, and I made about $12-13 per hour. She went on unemployment, and our monthly income plummeted. I sold my Harley to pay bills. We had an apartment, a kid, and a car payment. We also were paying COBRA for my wife's healthcare since losing her job, which was 100s of dollars more per month. We ended up getting behind on our bills and paying for basic things like groceries with my credit cards. Her credit was so bad that she didn't have any credit cards. She refused to allow me to ask my parents for financial help. Well, I say allow because that was about fight that there was no way for me to win. She was verbally and emotionally abusive to me, and very controlling.

When I finally left her after years of taking this abuse, she decided she wasn't going to pay her half of my credit card debt. She said that would count for my child support. Because we had missed payments, my rate was 30%. Before I had been with my ex-wife, I had excellent credit and was responsible with my money. I hadn't anticipated that things would end up this way. I had mistakenly thought that she would get another job soon and we would climb out of this financial hole. Instead, she decided not to look for another job and just take some classes to gain some more skills. She stayed on unemployment for a year. It wasn't until the end of that year that I left her, because she couldn't get by w/o my income. We had a child. I wasn't comfortable leaving them w/o an income that would sustain their basic needs.

When I left my ex-wife, I was making $13/hr and couldn't afford to pay much more than the minimum payments, but I always paid a little more just to try to get it paid down. I had a small dive of an apartment and no car payments. I got by ok, but at the rate I was going, it would have taken me decades to pay it off. I was faithful with my payments. I was never late or missed any of them. I called my credit card companies asking them to lower my rates. B of A told me I had to make all my payments on time for 6 months and then they would decrease it. 6 months came and went and I was still being charged 29.99%. Same with my Citibank card. No matter how many payments I made on time, neither bank would lower my rates. My parents ended up paying off my cards after a few years, because they saw how ridiculous my situation was.

That is how a lot of people end up with piles of debt they have no way to pay back. Yes, you could say I am at fault because of the choices I made. However, I wasn't able to anticipate how it would all turn out. I was in a bad marriage to someone I shouldn't have been with. I didn't see all the red flags ahead of time, because I had grown up with years of abuse and wasn't able to see those red flags. I was naive about a lot of things. I learned a lot of difficult lessons. I guess that is part of growing up. I now have zero credit share redit card debt. I never use my cards under any circumstances. If I want something I save for it and if I can't save for it, then I don't need it. I am on disability so I am very poor.

People get into a lot of debt for a variety of reasons. I think it's unfair to assume that you know all the ins and outs of a situation just on the face of it. People are human and make mistakes. That doesn't mean that the system isn't stacked against them and inherently unfair. It is.

I totally understand your situation. I had certain things happen to me and had to start over from scratch twice in my life. Sorry that happened to you. It sucks but it builds character.

[JAGG]

[QUOTE=Linus;433315]A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?[/QUOTE
You can pick a million and one situations and say that's an exception, what about that person. I have a huge problem with people run credit cards up and want there debts forgiven. Who read sign and accept the terms of a mortgage they know they can't afford. Just because you are approved for 175,000 dollars doesn't mean you can afford it. Then when they fall behind go into foreclosure they want to be bailed out. That is not fair to the people who bought the 80,00 dollar house in an older not as nice neighborhood without a pool granite countertops, because they knew they couldn't afford it at that time. I'm not talking someone who has a brain tumor removed and is brain damaged from it. Not talking about diabled. Or something toatally out of your control.

[JAGG]

Its easy to have a car and no insurance. I buy a car off my neighbor. I have 30 days in the state of Oklahoma to tag it. I don't need proof of insurance until I tag it. I could go 29 days without.

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by JAGG

Its easy to have a car and no insurance. I buy a car off my neighbor. I have 30 days in the state of Oklahoma to tag it. I don't need proof of insurance until I tag it. I could go 29 days without.

What is this in reference to Jagg?

[atomiczombie]

This is a great article about income inequality in the US:

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesam...er/wealth.html

It's really worth reading, and illustrates how wealth is being squeezed out of the middle class and into the hands of the top 1%.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

What is this in reference to Jagg?

That reference was from an earlier post of Julie's. I was using my cell phone . It has voice to text, but it's too diffcult to copy and paste. Sorry for the confusion.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by JAGG

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

I am sorry if you feel misunderstood - I read your words a few times and this is how I understood them. It came off as a great lacking of empathy.

I do have a question though... How do you really know if someone is being lazy or as you say just stupidity? And how do you know if it is in fact their fault? Honestly - We can assume many things and by making such assumptions, people are hurt.

What constitutes poor choices? And who are we to judge, they are poor choices?

And why is it based on how you feel? Could your feelings be wrong, based on bias or wrong information?

I believe this is how we get in trouble in this society - we make life changing calls for people, based on our own emotions and logic - we can certainly be skewed.

Julie

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Julie

I am sorry if you feel misunderstood - I read your words a few times and this is how I understood them. It came off as a great lacking of empathy.

I do have a question though... How do you really know if someone is being lazy or as you say just stupidity? And how do you know if it is in fact their fault? Honestly - We can assume many things and by making such assumptions, people are hurt.

What constitutes poor choices? And who are we to judge, they are poor choices?

And why is it based on how you feel? Could your feelings be wrong, based on bias or wrong information?

I believe this is how we get in trouble in this society - we make life changing calls for people, based on our own emotions and logic - we can certainly be skewed.

Julie

Of course my feelings could be wrong. But I'm not someone who would shoot off my mouth unless I had facts and real life experience , and my experiences have caused me to render the conclusions that my feelings and opinions are based on. I in no way ever think I'm right and someone else is wrong. I'm simply stating the truth as I know it,what my experience has been and why my view may differ from yours. You know I love ya Julie. I know I pushed your buttons so I'm going to try to unpush them by explaining what I mean a little better. Because I know when there is a passionate debate people will tend to read into things and tempers flair . So here's a little better explaination. Keep in mind you may not agree with me. There is a hurricane coming been getting reports 2 weeks solid. Everyone is told to evacuate. But instead of doing the right thing, some guy decides I'm not going to do the right thing, even though I'm taking a risk and I know what could happen, I'm gonna stick it out take my chances. The worst occurs. Now he has had warning after warning, 3 days of mandatory evacuations. Even had sheriffs going door to door in case someone was home bound. He still stayed. Now he is in a bad mess, he is forced to the roof top because the house is completely flooded. He is watching home after home swept away and he knows he screwed up. So he calls 911. Now the police the fireman and paramedics have to risk their lives , in white cap rapids, of rancid water full of virus's , bacteria dead animals you name it , to save this guy. Should the tax payers have to foot the bill for the rescue? No way!!! He should. Am I saying he shouldn't be rescued. Hell no I'm not saying that. Did I say he deserves to die , hell no didn't say that either. What I'm saying is he should have to pay for his poor choice, not us. And if a fireman or policeman dies trying to save him, he should be charged with involuntary manslaughter on top of paying for the cost of the rescue service. It's not fair to have to pay for someone else because they made poor choices. I don't agree with it. If that makes me lack empathy so be it. What I can't for the life of me understand is why people think we should. Why people think no one should have to take responsibilty for their actions boggles my mind. You don't think that is a good definition of stupitidy, staying even though you knew you should leave? I do .That was a poor choice . you make call me judgemental I call it a fact. That was plain old fashion stupid, and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Now let me guess what's gong happen. Someone is going to read this post. Get pissed and come up with some crazy scenerio that has nothing to do with what I am talking about then try to accuse me of meaning something I never even came close to thinking . Like this , well JAGG what if a steel mill blows up and 50 houses catch on fire, or what if a train derails and spews toxic liquid into a neighborhood, or a gas line explodes and burns up a nursing home, are you going make those people pay to be rescued too. Lets hope your house never catches on fire you never need to be rescued. It's clear you have never had any thing bad ever happen to you and you don't know what it's like to have your arms and legs cut off and need a paramedic. My 3rd cousin didnt tie his shoes one day and tripped on his lace fell down the steps broke his hip had to call a Paramedic are you saying that's his fault and he has to pay for his bad choice?????? I guess you would just leave him there to die. Because he didn't make the same choice you would have, he is just plain old fashion stupid and deserves to die. I think you're the stupid one.

[Corkey]

What if JAGG, he were 80 years old and didn't have a car and couldn't find anyone to take him out of harms way. Sound familiar? Katrina anyone? Not everyone has a choice as you put it, and some choices are not really a choice at all.

[JAGG]

:seeingstar s:

Originally Posted by Corkey

What if JAGG, he were 80 years old and didn't have a car and couldn't find anyone to take him out of harms way. Sound familiar? Katrina anyone? Not everyone has a choice as you put it, and some choices are not really a choice at all.

:seeingstar s::seeingst ars:

[Mr.Nobody]

I wonder how many bankers and developers and "investors" ever said...hmmm...I don't think these people can afford this home...let's not take their money....

I went this evening, to Occupy Pueblo...I met many people, old and young...some monied, some flat ass broke. Men, women and children of every shape and size and kind were there. I listened to stories of losing family businesses and hungry children and medical bills and job loss. I watched people weep, telling about how scared they are. I saw the fire in their eyes when they talked about how mad they are. I saw them shaking hands and hugging and talking about how can we make things better.

But I didn't hear one of the tell the story of yeah...I ripped off the government and had 6 motorcycles I couldn't pay for and my wife had a new mercedes and my kids were in private school and we ate steak and lobster every night. Now I know these folks are out there, but I really believe they are the exception, not the rule.

I did hear an old woman speak though. She told of her husband of 52 years that had died awhile back. They didn't have any kids and little savings. She had to sell the house to help pay off debt. The house sat for some time and her bills were piling up. By "chance" she met a "real estate developer". He came in and looked around her home. He offered her $58,000. At first she said no, because she was asking $72,000. But another 2 months went by with no better offers and she finally sold. The "developer" painted the house inside and out. Refinished the hardwood floors and "updated" the kitchen. One month later, her house was back on the market for $213,000. Boy, I guess she made the "wrong" choice there! Good thing she's paying for it now living in a rent controlled one bedroom studio apartment!

There is no ONE answer. But EVERYONE should have a voice. People SHOULD be able to say...no, please don't spend my tax dollars bailing out people who want to live off the system. People SHOULD be able to say...no, please don't send all those hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas. People SHOULD be able to say...yes, please pay our teachers more because they are the future of our children! People SHOULD be able to say...no, please mr senators, don't vote yourselves another pay raise. People SHOULD be able to say...yes please, let those people get married. People SHOULD be able to say...no please, don't use $83 kazillion dollars to bail out those assholes that took our money!!!! And they SHOULD be able to expect their voices heard. ALL PEOPLE!!! Even the one's who have made "wrong, stupid, bad, lazy or poor" choices.

And theoretically that's the way our government is supposed to work. But when was the last time your alderman, or congressman or governor came to visit your house to sit over tea and chat about what kinds of things you would like to see changed?
It's time for change......yes?

[Sachita]

This may have been posted. If not here it is-

http://15october.net/

On October 15th people from all over the world will take to the streets and squares.

From America to Asia, from Africa to Europe, people are rising up to claim their rights and demand a true democracy. Now it is time for all of us to join in a global non violent protest.

The ruling powers work for the benefit of just a few, ignoring the will of the vast majority and the human and environmental price we all have to pay. This intolerable situation must end.

United in one voice, we will let politicians, and the financial elites they serve, know it is up to us, the people, to decide our future. We are not goods in the hands of politicians and bankers who do not represent us.

On October 15th, we will meet on the streets to initiate the global change we want. We will peacefully demonstrate, talk and organize until we make it happen.

It’s time for us to unite. It’s time for them to listen.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by JAGG

:seeingstar s::seeingst ars::seeing stars:

Rather juvenile to the conversation don't you think?

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by JAGG

:seeingstar s::seeingst ars::seeing stars:

JAGG insists she has empathy, then posts something like this Corkey. I guess Katrina and all of those Elderly folks
stuck on top of their roofs, many of whom died. That was their fault. Poor choice, ya know.........