OCCUPY WALL STREET

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

I don't disagree with the end of unfair tax breaks, Jagg, or lopsided tax structures that allow for a greater cut of Warren Buffet's secretary's salary to be taken out than his own.

But how you intend to solve the myriad of other issues at stake and at play here? What about the folks who have underwater mortgages? What about those who lost home and property to a medical bankruptcy? What about those who got sold a bill of goods by Enron and the like and invested in a garbage 401K? What about the folks who lost their small stores and businesses when Walmart and company came to town? What about the steel towns like the ones I live and have lived in that watched a thriving main street become a ghost town?

How exactly does an entity like a corporation, that is not only set up to serve itself first and foremost but is actually mandated by law to be responsible first to its owners/stockholders, ever get to decide what's best for all? And now that corporations do in fact run our democracy, how do we effectively reverse that?

You really want my opinion on fixing all those things? I don't have answers for all these things, but I can give you my opinion. That would take me a week, hahahah I'll tell you what I think about some and adress other ones later.
I don't know what you mean by an underwater mortgage. Do you mean people who took out a loan with a bank for an adjustible interest rate instead of a fixed rate ? Or someone who took out a loan they knew they couldn't afford but because the bank agreed to give them the loan they took it, and now can't make the payments? Tell me what you mean by underwater mortgages and then I can give you my opinion. As far as medical bancruptcy, it of course could happen to anyone. Just like any disaster in life, you don't expect it, or want it but you still need to take precautions. There are many many insurance companies you can buy policies from for a very small monthly fee ,some as low as 20 dolars a month, to protect you in case you become ill and unable too work . It pays your mortgage medical bills and even pays to retrain you in a new field if your injuries or illness prevent you from returning to your job. Some will pay up to a million dollars of medical bills etc, depends on your policy. So knowing it could happen to anyone at anytime, I think it's important you take measures to insure you're prepared. It's like not having renters insurance. It's less than 10 dollars a month but if you don't have it and a tornado wipes everything out, you'll have nothing. Do you think someone who wasn't willing to protect themselves should now be taken care of by tax payers? I don't. I'm not saying I don't feel sorry for them , or that it's not an awful situation to be in, I'm saying you can protect yourself if you don't want that to happen. If you don't protect yourself, then I guess you'll have to make do best you can. That is the responsiblity of the individual.
Enron is a messed up deal. All the people and companies that lost everything, the elderly, who can't work anymore, it's sad. Again could happen to anyone, those people had no idea their investments were shams some even did a lot research on the company before they invested, and it all seemed valid , how do we compensate victims of a crime? I supppose all that can be done is sell the assets and distribute them to the victims. Hold the people accountable for their crimes including the Gov. agencies who's job was to insure these things don't happen, like SEC. Then impliment rules and safeguards so that it doesn't happen again. It's all you can do. It's not a perfect plan , and those people will never get all their money back or even a fraction, by no fault of their own. It's sad it sucks, it's not fair. No easy fix for that one.
Now the mom and pop crisis. I'm sure many will hang me by my eyelashes for my opinion on this but, it's the truth as I see it. My opinion.
If you go into a store and they want 65 dollars for a blanket, you can get somewhere else for 18 dollars, which one do you choose. If you can't change and grow and be flexible, and offer the public something different, something better and your prices are too high you're are going to go out of business. That is a fact. That's bad business practices. Mom and pop shops didn't want to lower prices didn't want to offer a different service didn't want to do anything different, so they failed to compete. Blame it on walmart? There are plenty of mom and pop shops still open. Mcdonalds , Burgerking, Wendy's , Steak and Shake, they haven't put any small mom and pop burger places out of business. People will pay extra for a better product, they will also pay more for a unique service or product, but they won't pay more for the same product or a like product. If a company is not offering something better or different than their rivals , except higher prices, that's bad business practices, no company can be profitable conducting business like that, why should poor busniess practices and an unwillingness to change anything make a mom and pop store anymore special than say, Builders Square, or Ultimate electronics . That's business, that's how it works and how it doesn't work. Blame it on walmart, blame it on the internet, target, kmart, but the fact is had they offered something better,something more, something different, something unique, they would still be in business. Ok That's it for tonight.

[SoNotHer]

[QUOTE=JAGG;432922] I don't know what you mean by an underwater mortgage. Do you mean people who took out a loan with a bank for an adjustible interest rate instead of a fixed rate ?"

From Wisegeek.com "An underwater mortgage leaves the owner with more debt on the property than the current market value."

You owe more on your home than it's worth, conscripted as you are to "mortgage" (as in the French word "mort," or death, or only after death are free).

You can find a similar definition or find in news stories daily. The last figure I read suggested that folks lost 30% and more of their home's value in the post "boom boom" days that took a sharp right off the cliff just prior to Bush's exit. Inasmuch as a home is most folks' greatest financial asset, this was somewhat painful for working family types but perhaps better news for predatory types.


"As far as medical bancruptcy, it of course could happen to anyone."

The Vegas odds are better for the un or under-insured.

"I think it's important you take measures to insure you're prepared."

So how does that work for folks who were directed to invest in an Enron 401K, or who were counseled to buy a home beyond their means, or whose children were sent multiple credit card offers while still in college or who had the great misfortune of getting inconveniently sick working a Walmart or any job that ensures that you work just up to the point where you are not entitled to health insurance?

"I'm saying you can protect yourself if you don't want that to happen. If you don't protect yourself, then I guess you'll have to make do best you can. That is the responsiblity of the individual."

So really whatever happens, happens and let the free market rule? It's all good, right?

It's funny. We hold children to much different standards than this. If we see a child hitting another child, we intervene. If we see a child take another child's cookie, we stop it and make the child give it back. If we hear a child bullying another child or talking to other children about picking on and setting up another child, we address it and ensure that no child feels singled out or bullied or inferior. We want our children to understand, embody and act out of a sense of goodness and fairness and equality.

And then we become adults and that changes. So what exactly does that say about us, and what does that model for our children?


" Now the mom and pop crisis. I'm sure many will hang me by my eyelashes for my opinion on this but, it's the truth as I see it. My opinion.
If you go into a store and they want 65 dollars for a blanket, you can get somewhere else for 18 dollars, which one do you choose."

And that would be the only measure of cost and value? The comparative retail prices? Beyond the price you see and make a determination on, there are many other costs and prices to consider. And the statistics clearly and consistently show that the Mom & Pop stores not only give back more to their communities in terms of charity, real jobs and taxes, they also happen to take less from their community than a Walmart does in, for instance, in emergency services response and patrol (lotta stuff to watch and prosecute for the shoplifting of) or water contamination and clean up in the river that sits just, unfortunately enough, behind a Super Walmart.

And then of course there's what Walmart allows the community and taxpayer to do, namely take on those medical costs and bankruptcies. Over two thirds of the WM's employees don't participate in the company's healthcare plan. Wonder why. I'm sure it's because they're so abundantly covered somewhere else.

So it's interesting that while you call for more exports and fewer imports, a better trade balance and a stronger American-made economy, you find the justification to shop a store known for selling "Cheap Chinese Crap" because it appears to cost less.

And sadly, that's what everyone's done, which is why the dollar stagnates, China buys our debt (and ours and Canada's prime agriculture, by the way), and the middle class does an amazing disappearing act. "If we're looking for someone to blame, we only have to look into the mirror."

So here we are, many of us, listening to euphemisms like "downsizing" or "food insecurity" or "eliminating redundancies" thrown around, terrified of communism, ignorant of socialism, and falling into the ever widening jaws of carnivorous capitalism and wondering exactly when we hit some kind of economic and social oblivion from which there is no turning back.

[Write14u]

Originally Posted by JAGG

Now the mom and pop crisis. I'm sure many will hang me by my eyelashes for my opinion on this but, it's the truth as I see it. My opinion.
If you go into a store and they want 65 dollars for a blanket, you can get somewhere else for 18 dollars, which one do you choose. If you can't change and grow and be flexible, and offer the public something different, something better and your prices are too high you're are going to go out of business. That is a fact. That's bad business practices. Mom and pop shops didn't want to lower prices didn't want to offer a different service didn't want to do anything different, so they failed to compete. Blame it on walmart?

Gotta disagree with you on this one JAGG. It wasn't a matter of not wanting to lower prices for mom and pop businesses.
When Wal-Mart exploded in the 80s and ---yes, put mom and pop places out of business --- it did it because it had the power of money. I know this first hand and witnessed it with my father's television shop. When he ordered a Magnavox, etc., TV for his store, he couldn't even get the same rate as Wal-Mart was SELLING TVs for. Because Wal-Mart bought in such bulk from the manufacturers, it was able to sell TVs for lower than my dad, as a dealer, could buy them. You can say it's not Wal-Mart's fault that it had the money to buy so much at such a low price, and that would be accurate. However, it's not accurate to blame it on smaller businesses who were unable to match those prices without taking steep losses.
And yes, Wal-Mart knocked my dad out of business. He adapted and found other things to sell/do. But in no way, shape or fashion, did he have the money required to compete with Wal-Mart. The only small mom and pop stores remaining open are niche shops.

[Write14u]

And JAGG, as for being prepared: There are people who can barely afford to pay for food. There's not even $10 per month to squeeze out of the budget for any type of insurance, whether it's renters insurance or life insurance, etc.
Julie said it well. There's nothing you can do when you lose your job and you're doing everything you can to find another and something happens to you, such as a medical issue. That's not lack of preparation.

[Julie]

True Story!

A friend of mine died yesterday. He was diagnosed with full blown AIDS 2 years ago. He lost his job because of illness, yet managed to find another one - less paying and without insurance. He could not go to the doctors for general care (just for his aids) and a year ago was diagnosed with Colon Cancer. He was at risk of losing his car - he could not make the car payments, which having a car might not seem like a lot - but it meant, he could not get his HIV treatment. No mass transit where he lived. We as a community raised a few thousand dollars to try and get him on his feet.

He died from a massive infection. He would NEVER have become so ill, had they found the colon cancer earlier, but he did not have insurance. He could not get help. It was too late for him. He died because of our country - our country killed him.

And SweetCali - We lost her as well. We lost her, because this country of ours does not give a shit about people without health insurance. She was treated like a second class citizen and she did not have to die. She should not have died. I believe our country is also responsible for her death.

And what about all of the other people who die on a daily basis, because they do not get the health care needed or are not treated with the same care as someone with money? PLEASE!

We in this country are creating our own fucking genocide with the poor.
What part of this is okay?

I am just so heartbroken by the ignorance of some people. When you are so ignorant and callous - you are creating a great hurt!

[The_Lady_Snow]

RIP Roger you were an amazing human being.

[JustJo]

I haven't read the entire thread yet, so please excuse me if I miss a point or something....but....I have to say that I think there is a middle ground when it comes to personal responsibility.

I am all for helping people out who are hit by a tornado, lose their job, get driven out of business by the WalMarts of the world, etc.

Yes, shit happens...and no one can be prepared for everything. There should be a safety net, and it should be adequate so that people can live with dignity.

However....I see a whole lot of people who fail to take personal responsibility when they can and then want everyone else to bail them out...and that frosts my cookies.

I work with a whole lot of people who make a good living....don't bother to save anything in their 401k because they'd rather spend it on a new car every year, and then whine that social security won't be enough to support them in a 20 year retirement. Really?

I live in an area (and bought a short sale house from a perfect example) where lots and lots of people went crazy pulling money out of their homes on home equity loans to buy toys....boats, RVs, fishing gear, 4 wheelers, electronic goodies....and then wanted the rest of us to bail them out when the bubble burst and they owed more on their homes than they could afford to pay each month, or more than the house was worth. Really?

I'm not talking about people who get sick, get shafted on their jobs, get preyed upon by predatory lenders....I'm talking about people who make piss poor choices, and then cry that they got a raw deal and want the government (i.e. your wallet and mine) to bail them out.

Like Jagg, that bothers me.
Yes, shit happens that people can't deal with...and they should be helped. But not everyone who's crying foul got dealt a bad hand either....they just got greedy, took a gamble, and lost.

[JAGG]

[QUOTE=Julie;433282]True Story!

A friend of mine died yesterday. He was diagnosed with full blown AIDS 2 years ago. He lost his job because of illness, yet managed to find another one - less paying and without insurance. He could not go to the doctors for general care (just for his aids) and a year ago was diagnosed with Colon Cancer. He was at risk of losing his car - he could not make the car payments, which having a car might not seem like a lot - but it meant, he could not get his HIV treatment. No mass transit where he lived. We as a community raised a few thousand dollars to try and get him on his feet.

He died from a massive infection. He would NEVER have become so ill, had they found the colon cancer earlier, but he did not have insurance. He could not get help. It was too late for him. He died because of our country - our country killed him.



Julie,
I agree 100 percent. Our health care system sucks . The way we treat our elderly and disabled including terminal illnesses, is a crying shame!!!!!!!! It's pathetic that an elderly person has to decide whether to buy their meds or food for the month. We all know alot of the problems would be easy to fix. Another good reason for these protests.

[AtLast]

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...ayor-says.html

I can't help but think back to what mayors and other politicians said in the 60's and 70's about demonstrations. It took them all awhile to understand that people were taking a stand on things that deeply effect their lives.

I have been thinking about how these deomstrations are not on college campuses but the financial centers and willbe much more disruptive. But, I don't see how the protestors can make their point any other way and finally be heard.

[T4Texas]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...ayor-says.html

II have been thinking about how these deomstrations are not on college campuses but the financial centers and willbe much more disruptive. But, I don't see how the protestors can make their point any other way and finally be heard.

Banking is out of control. You have to fall into a very narrow window anymore to have a good credit score. I believe there is something fundamentally wrong with a banking system that will penalize you or even foreclose on you for paying your mortgage early or making your credit card payments on time and still giving you a bad credit rating. The banks have made a lot of bad investments over the years as shown by the numbers of bailouts. Now they are trying to squeeze their customers in order to recoup some of their losses. Credit is a vicious cycle. I filed bankruptcy in the 1980s and learned a valuable lesson about managing credit. Credit cards lure you in with high credit limits and low payments bringin on a debt you can never get paid. The fact that I could not manage credit caused me to go on a cash basis with everything and it truly simplified my life and probably saved me thousands of dollars in fees. Of course not everyone can do that. If you want a house or other big ticket items you need a credit score and you need a bank.
I believe that government, lobbyists, banking, pharmacuetical companies and insurance companies totally challenge our lives. All of them have their hands in each other's pockets and the ones who usually suffer for all this are the regular folks. All of these things have brought about the suppression of the average citizen. The government lies to us and tells us things are looking up, jobs are on the horizon, when no such thing is happening. They say unemployment is down . They play with the numbers, but fail to tell you that those numbers do not include people who are off the unemployment rolls because they have maxed out, but still have no jobs. These things are much worse than we think and as was previously mentioned, we ARE in a depression/recession, make no mistake about it. We have been for quite some time, but the middle and upper classes fail to acknowledge it because it had not affected their daily lives in such an adverse way. Now its in your backyard and the situation is different. I beleive that until the people of this country stand up and say they are finished with this, shake up their political representatives and DEMAND social and economic change, nothing is going to change and we will continue in the downward spiral that we are apparently already in. We also need to start from the top of the pile. Obama has given us a lot of empty words and a handshake.Remember this is an upcoming election year, and the president will be telling you everything you want to hear. CEOs sit quietly atop their empires, knowing that if the country revolts, they will lose their cushy (and undeserved) salaries. And lets not forget the media. Another subservient to politics. I mean honestly, the media reports on everything, even the last shark that washed up on the beach, but have you seen a lot of media coverage of the wall street protests? Makes me think someone is telling them to keep it low key. Opinions on that? We truly need to see more of the type of WAll Street action and not let it slip away from us. The French did have the right idea.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by T4Texas

Banking is out of control. You have to fall into a very narrow window anymore to have a good credit score. I believe there is something fundamentally wrong with a banking system that will penalize you or even foreclose on you for paying your mortgage early or making your credit card payments on time and still giving you a bad credit rating. The banks have made a lot of bad investments over the years as shown by the numbers of bailouts. Now they are trying to squeeze their customers in order to recoup some of their losses. Credit is a vicious cycle. I filed bankruptcy in the 1980s and learned a valuable lesson about managing credit. Credit cards lure you in with high credit limits and low payments bringin on a debt you can never get paid. The fact that I could not manage credit caused me to go on a cash basis with everything and it truly simplified my life and probably saved me thousands of dollars in fees. Of course not everyone can do that. If you want a house or other big ticket items you need a credit score and you need a bank.
I believe that government, lobbyists, banking, pharmacuetical companies and insurance companies totally challenge our lives. All of them have their hands in each other's pockets and the ones who usually suffer for all this are the regular folks. All of these things have brought about the suppression of the average citizen. The government lies to us and tells us things are looking up, jobs are on the horizon, when no such thing is happening. They say unemployment is down . They play with the numbers, but fail to tell you that those numbers do not include people who are off the unemployment rolls because they have maxed out, but still have no jobs. These things are much worse than we think and as was previously mentioned, we ARE in a depression/recession, make no mistake about it. We have been for quite some time, but the middle and upper classes fail to acknowledge it because it had not affected their daily lives in such an adverse way. Now its in your backyard and the situation is different. I beleive that until the people of this country stand up and say they are finished with this, shake up their political representatives and DEMAND social and economic change, nothing is going to change and we will continue in the downward spiral that we are apparently already in. We also need to start from the top of the pile. Obama has given us a lot of empty words and a handshake.Remember this is an upcoming election year, and the president will be telling you everything you want to hear. CEOs sit quietly atop their empires, knowing that if the country revolts, they will lose their cushy (and undeserved) salaries. And lets not forget the media. Another subservient to politics. I mean honestly, the media reports on everything, even the last shark that washed up on the beach, but have you seen a lot of media coverage of the wall street protests? Makes me think someone is telling them to keep it low key. Opinions on that? We truly need to see more of the type of WAll Street action and not let it slip away from us. The French did have the right idea.

We are in complete agreement- my comment is about this protest movement going to the "source." Sorry, my post wasn't clear- I was thinking that it could very well get attention in Congress because, unlike most of (not all) the
social protest movement in the 60's & 70's were on college and university campuses.

[Sachita]

People have been socially hypnotized and manipulated by the great white lie. Their unpreparedness and ignorance is due to the fact that they believed in this "One Nation under God" bullshit. They ignored the facts and solicited the propaganda because they were lied to. They believed that social security would take care of them. It's not their fault.

As mentioned in other post most live pay check to pay check. It's a constant struggle just to stay afloat so it's no wonder they long to escape even if it's a form of sabotage. We are all victims of this trap.

My son wants to go to DC and I'm going to get him a ticket. He wants to stand up for his daughter's future. I am proud of him. I am worried but I am proud. I wondered why the fuck it took so long for people to actually do something. You are witness to a revolution we can not allow it to die. There are tons of people out there that STILL don't know what's going on or why. If you can't be there or financially support them then spend some time posting on facebook or anywhere you can giving people information and getting them proactive to do the same. If you live close to a city protesting find out how you can send blankets, jackets, sweat shirts, water, anything. Some people were unprepared- lol- Yep, sometimes passion rules!