Justice as fairness: we can do better than we are

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

One, I think when we call the United State of America, "America", it discounts all of the other Americans living in North and South America and sounds very privileged and dismissive.

Honestly, while I do know some people who make this argument - I'm just not on board with that. I am okay with people from the US calling themselves American and me not calling myself American. I like calling myself Canadian because I like being Canadian. I like being Canadian to the degree that (no offense intended) it hurts my feelings a little if someone thinks I am an American.

Two, I think North and South America should be more united, possibly as a single entity.

Oh god no! Please no. No. Just no. No.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Are you saying that we should impose Canadian laws on abortion and birth control on, say, very, very, very Catholic Mexico or Nicaragua which might have some definite feelings about it?

Side note: Canada actually doesn't -have- any laws about abortion. No, I mean it. There are no laws on the books about abortion at all. No rules about how or where or when or at what point during pregnancy. All abortion is legal in Canada, full stop. I could get an abortion at 9 months pregnant if I felt like it (and could find a doctor willing to go along with it, but that's another story).

But anyway, no. I have no interest in EVER merging with any country in North America. I'm not even okay with the US and Canada becoming one country. Not even a little bit okay. We're fine, thanks. We do not need to join forces with you. We're very likely better off -not- joining forces with you.

The whole EU thing, I get. A little. I do think that, for example, Belgium and France have more in common than not and so certainly have a better shot at making it work than the US and Mexico do. Maybe Canada and the US have as much in common and Belgium and France do - maybe. But I just don't see it working for us.

For starters the US is, to my understanding, pretty stoked about being independent from England. And we LIKE that the Queen is our (mostly symbolic) "head of state". We're good with it. It's part of our heritage. How do you reconcile that between two countries?

Then add on top of that the very different ways our governments are run, certain laws we have in Canada that would never fly in the US, certain lacks of laws we don't have in Canada that would make heads spin in the US, health care and equal marriage in Canada, all that free speech right to carry a gun stuff in the US.

It'd just NEVER work. Our countries are far too different.

Maybe Canada should join the EU.

ETA - I do not want to join the EU either. I do want Canada to buy a warm island somewhere that I can move to legally so I never have to see snow again, however.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

We call ourselves Americans because the name of our country is the United States *Of America*. What the hell else are we supposed to call ourselves? USians? United Staters? And why would anyone call a person from Brazil an American? People from Brazil are Brazilians. If I'm referring to the continent as a whole I'll say "North Americans" or "South Americans" but if I'm referring to a specific country, I'm an American, Bete is a Canadian, one of my professors is a Chilean. What other words am I supposed to use?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

We call ourselves Americans because the name of our country is the United States *Of America*. What the hell else are we supposed to call ourselves? USians? United Staters? And why would anyone call a person from Brazil an American? People from Brazil are Brazilians. If I'm referring to the continent as a whole I'll say "North Americans" or "South Americans" but if I'm referring to a specific country, I'm an American, Bete is a Canadian, one of my professors is a Chilean. What other words am I supposed to use?

US Citizens? From the US? Estados Unidenses? Norte Americanos?

People from Brazil do live in America. South America.

Other people who live in the Americas hate it that we act like we are the only Americans.

Smart, intelligent, educated people in other countries in the Americas, other than Canada apparently, call themselves American and they are.

It is very US centric to say they are not, in my opinion. They do not agree that what to call ourselves is their problem.

[Cin]

For me I am willing to say that people in Latin America are responsible for their choices when they are actually allowed to make them without covert or overt interference from the right wing agenda pushing United States of America. However, that is not likely to happen anytime soon. One only needs to look at what happened recently in Honduras to understand that. No matter all the fancy footwork it was clear to other Latin American governments that the political strategy of the U.S. was to blunt and delay any efforts to restore the elected president, while pretending that a return to democracy was actually the goal. Haiti had the U.S. extensively involved in overthrowing the elected president Jean-Bertrand Aristide not once but twice. The U.S. has lost some ground over recent years but that just means they are in there fighting all the harder to to get it back one country at a time. And as always the smaller, poorer countries that are closer to the U.S. are the most at risk.

Personally I think a united Latin America would be a better idea.

All abortion is legal in Canada but current provincial policy forbids abortions from being performed in PEI. There is also free medical care in Canada but in PEI the government will only cover the cost of the abortion in a hospital in a different province under the recommendation of two doctors. So if you live in PEI even though you are supposed to be entitled to free medical care and abortion is legal in Canada you would not be able to get an abortion that was free just because you wanted one. So I suppose if P.E.I. can do it then I imagine very catholic latin american countries could also get around abortion laws.

I imagine it is disturbing and it might even piss some people off that the U.S. hogs the term American for itself. And not in the way that people are European or Asian but as their nationality. It might not annoy Canadians as much as Latin Americans because, although I know some that don't like it but think it is just part of the typical thoughtless arrogant behavior one expects from Americans, Canada hasn't been subjected to the same kind of imperialistic behavior as Latin America.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

For me I am willing to say that people in Latin America are responsible for their choices when they are actually allowed to make them without covert or overt interference from the right wing agenda pushing United States of America. However, that is not likely to happen anytime soon. One only needs to look at what happened recently in Honduras to understand that. No matter all the fancy footwork it was clear to other Latin American governments that the political strategy of the U.S. was to blunt and delay any efforts to restore the elected president, while pretending that a return to democracy was actually the goal. Haiti had the U.S. extensively involved in overthrowing the elected president Jean-Bertrand Aristide not once but twice. The U.S. has lost some ground over recent years but that just means they are in there fighting all the harder to to get it back one country at a time. And as always the smaller, poorer countries that are closer to the U.S. are the most at risk.

Personally I think a united Latin America would be a better idea.

All abortion is legal in Canada but current provincial policy forbids abortions from being performed in PEI. There is also free medical care in Canada but in PEI the government will only cover the cost of the abortion in a hospital in a different province under the recommendation of two doctors. So if you live in PEI even though you are supposed to be entitled to free medical care and abortion is legal in Canada you would not be able to get an abortion that was free just because you wanted one. So I suppose if P.E.I. can do it then I imagine very catholic Latin American countries could also get around abortion laws.

I imagine it is disturbing and it might even piss some people off that the U.S. hogs the term American for itself. And not in the way that people are European or Asian but as their nationality. It might not annoy Canadians as much as Latin Americans because, although I know some that don't like it but think it is just part of the typical thoughtless arrogant behavior one expects from Americans, Canada hasn't been subjected to the same kind of imperialistic behavior as Latin America.

Most US citizens really don't think about South America or the role the US has had and continues to have in coups, dictatorships, wars and even drugs and arms dealings.

Really glad to you do! and really get and care how it might feel to a non-US citizen.

I don't know that it would benefit to have a united Latin America, it might divide the US even more on issues like language, immigration and geopolitical borders. Would Brazil be considered Latin? I mean yes, linguistically it should be, but in the US we seem to use Latin and Latino/a for people who speak Spanish and do not live in Spain, not people who speak languages bases on Latin.....which BTW I find confusing a bit. What of other (yes small) countries who don't speak Spanish in South America?

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I don't know that it would benefit to have a united Latin America, it might divide the US even more on issues like language, immigration and geopolitical borders. Would Brazil be considered Latin? I mean yes, linguistically it should be, but in the US we seem to use Latin and Latino/a for people who speak Spanish and do not live in Spain, not people who speak languages bases on Latin.....which BTW I find confusing a bit. What of other (yes small) countries who don't speak Spanish in South America?

LOL. Everything IS about the U.S isn't it? Even though last I looked, despite their behavior, the United States doesn't actually own Latin America.

Strangely enough though when I mentioned it I was thinking about how it might actually effect Latin America itself. But I suppose when you live so close to a country that reminds one of a gigantically powerful 5 year old you do not want to do anything to piss them off too much. Still do you not think it would benefit Latin America to unite?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

LOL. Everything IS about the U.S isn't it? Even though last I looked, despite their behavior, the United States doesn't actually own Latin America.

Strangely enough though when I mentioned it I was thinking about how it might actually effect Latin America itself. But I suppose when you live so close to a country that reminds one of a gigantically powerful 5 year old you do not want to do anything to piss them off too much. Still do you not think it would benefit Latin America to unite?

I was thinking about Undocumented Workers and the wall and how the US acts already about its newest immigrants.

If the US had a united, organized force to the South, I doubt the US would behave well about it..which might not be in the interest of anyone...except maybe China and OPEC.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I imagine it is disturbing and it might even piss some people off that the U.S. hogs the term American for itself. And not in the way that people are European or Asian but as their nationality. It might not annoy Canadians as much as Latin Americans because, although I know some that don't like it but think it is just part of the typical thoughtless arrogant behavior one expects from Americans, Canada hasn't been subjected to the same kind of imperialistic behavior as Latin America.

Two words, British Empire.

Cheers
Aj

[Cin]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Two words, British Empire.

Cheers
Aj

Sorry I don't see the connection. I don't see any continent named
Britain. Besides in my experience one just can't talk people out of their feelings. They are allowed to not like something. And some people from other parts of America don't like it that the people of the United States call themselves Americans and say they live in America and that people always want to come to America as though they had a monopoly on America and could just disregard the millions of people who live outside of the U.S. but also live in America.

Oh, I forgot this one. America love it or leave it.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

US Citizens? From the US? Estados Unidenses? Norte Americanos?

People from Brazil do live in America. South America.

Other people who live in the Americas hate it that we act like we are the only Americans.

Smart, intelligent, educated people in other countries in the Americas, other than Canada apparently, call themselves American and they are.

It is very US centric to say they are not, in my opinion. They do not agree that what to call ourselves is their problem.

So if Brazilians get to be Brazilian, and Canadians get to be Canadian, and the English get to be the English what word would you suggest we use for ourselves? Are you suggesting that, in the interest of respect for people in South America, we should perhaps change the name of the country from the United States of America? If so, what would you suggest the name of the country be? Or should we be Unionists or Statists? Or USians? If Americans is *not* the right short-name for citizens of the United States, what is? It's one thing to say "you shouldn't do that" it is quite another thing to say "and here is what you should do". I'm serious, Apoc, what would you prefer citizens of the United States call themselves? Citizen of the USA? Citizen of the United States? Citizen of the US? What have we done that of ALL the people in the world now, in the past or indefinitely into the future can call themselves Germans if they are from Germany or French if they are from France or Mexican if they are from Mexico but we, only we, cannot have a short name for ourselves as citizens of our nation? Why is it only us who must go through lengthy circumlocutions when the English can call themselves English even though they had an empire that lasted quite some time?

ETA: If it is because of our empire, shouldn't the same apply to the Japanese, the Chinese, the French, the British, the Turks, the Germans, the Russians and the Persians? ALL of them had empires at one point or another. Some much more recently than others and every last one of them was somewhere on the line of brutal. Shouldn't they *also* be stripped of their national names? Now, this is based *solely* on the idea that Americans--uniquely amongst nations--has been so overwhelmingly horrible to other nations that it is an *insult* to others for us to have a short-name for ourselves as a people because they are also Americans in as much as they occupy the Western Hemisphere. If it is not because of our imperial actions, then what *is* it based on because this seems to me to be a case of "America must pay for her crimes" and stripping the citizens of their national name is a good place to start.

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So if Brazilians get to be Brazilian, and Canadians get to be Canadian, and the English get to be the English what word would you suggest we use for ourselves? Are you suggesting that, in the interest of respect for people in South America, we should perhaps change the name of the country from the United States of America? If so, what would you suggest the name of the country be? Or should we be Unionists or Statists? Or USians? If Americans is *not* the right short-name for citizens of the United States, what is? It's one thing to say "you shouldn't do that" it is quite another thing to say "and here is what you should do". I'm serious, Apoc, what would you prefer citizens of the United States call themselves? Citizen of the USA? Citizen of the United States? Citizen of the US? What have we done that of ALL the people in the world now, in the past or indefinitely into the future can call themselves Germans if they are from Germany or French if they are from France or Mexican if they are from Mexico but we, only we, cannot have a short name for ourselves as citizens of our nation? Why is it only us who must go through lengthy circumlocutions when the English can call themselves English even though they had an empire that lasted quite some time?

Cheers
Aj

I'm serious here too, while admitting we will probably continue to disagree on this subject...and thats OK

Let's say France had decided to name itself the United States of Europe and expected everyone to call them and only them "Europeans"?

It would be obnoxious? Yes?

To me, its the same situation, the continent was named America and the US decided to go with naming itself the United States of America and to expect everyone to call US citizens and only US citizens "American"...and for the excuse to be that it would be awkward not to.

To me? Obnoxious.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I'm serious here too, while admitting we will probably continue to disagree on this subject...and thats OK

Let's say France had decided to name itself the United States of Europe and expected everyone to call them and only them "Europeans"?

It would be obnoxious? Yes?

To me, its the same situation, the continent was named America and the US decided to go with naming itself the United States of America and to expect everyone to call US citizens and only US citizens "American"...and for the excuse to be that it would be awkward not to.

To me? Obnoxious.

Okay, so what would you suggest that the United States of America change it's name to? You've done the easy part, saying "this is wrong and should not be done" now, what about the hard part of "and this is how you make it right". I'll accept, for the moment, your argument and stipulate that the United States should change its name from the United States of America to something else. So what *should* that name be? And how do you propose we go about convincing large numbers of citizens that we *should* change the name of our country? How would you make that case?

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Okay, so what would you suggest that the United States of America change it's name to? You've done the easy part, saying "this is wrong and should not be done" now, what about the hard part of "and this is how you make it right". I'll accept, for the moment, your argument and stipulate that the United States should change its name from the United States of America to something else. So what *should* that name be?

Cheers
Aj

I am not saying we change it, it seems way too late for that (and everyone already hates us)...I am saying we take a couple more seconds to say "US Citizens".

I am from the USA or US.

That is what I try to say

It would go a long way to mend fences.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Okay, so what would you suggest that the United States of America change it's name to? You've done the easy part, saying "this is wrong and should not be done" now, what about the hard part of "and this is how you make it right". I'll accept, for the moment, your argument and stipulate that the United States should change its name from the United States of America to something else. So what *should* that name be? And how do you propose we go about convincing large numbers of citizens that we *should* change the name of our country? How would you make that case?

Cheers
Aj

Maybe we could just keep our name and just stop being so myopically obnoxious.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Side note: Canada actually doesn't -have- any laws about abortion. No, I mean it. There are no laws on the books about abortion at all. No rules about how or where or when or at what point during pregnancy. All abortion is legal in Canada, full stop. I could get an abortion at 9 months pregnant if I felt like it (and could find a doctor willing to go along with it, but that's another story).

And this is precisely the point I was making. Sure, deep blue-state me would be perfectly happen adopting Canada's lack of laws governing abortion. Deep red-state someone else would have a BIG problem with it. Deeply Catholic Nicaraguans would probably have a *gigantic* problem. And woe betide the person who tried to take that away.

But anyway, no. I have no interest in EVER merging with any country in North America. I'm not even okay with the US and Canada becoming one country. Not even a little bit okay. We're fine, thanks. We do not need to join forces with you. We're very likely better off -not- joining forces with you.

The whole EU thing, I get. A little. I do think that, for example, Belgium and France have more in common than not and so certainly have a better shot at making it work than the US and Mexico do. Maybe Canada and the US have as much in common and Belgium and France do - maybe. But I just don't see it working for us.

I think that two minutes after the accord merging everything from the Arctic to Antarctic was signed, there would be screams about Western cultural imperialism as we imposed our legal and cultural mores on nations down south.

[qutoe]
For starters the US is, to my understanding, pretty stoked about being independent from England. And we LIKE that the Queen is our (mostly symbolic) "head of state". We're good with it. It's part of our heritage. How do you reconcile that between two countries? [/quote]

You don't. I mean, I think that for the most part Americans are pretty neutral about the whole monarchy thing but I don't see us adopting Her Majesty as our head of state (and, quite honestly, I do rather like that our head of state and our head of government are embodied in the same person).


Cheers
Aj

[betenoire]

The funny thing about anarchy is this:

For you to honestly believe it would work you'd have to have a pretty altruistic view of human nature. You know, the doctor will be very happy to care for your sick mother because she is very excited that you tend the chickens. The dude next door would never rape you because he is a good person and knows you are a good person who would never steal his car. Blah blah social contract blah blah.

That's pretty stupid and naive, for starters.

But on TOP of that. Right on top of that - you have the fact that most "anarchist" groups are populated by dickheaded 25 year old white boys who break windows and do more harm than good when they show up at a protest. The behaviour of the average self-described anarchist ALONE is evidence enough that anarchy would never work.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by betenoire

But on TOP of that. Right on top of that - you have the fact that most "anarchist" groups are populated by dickheaded 25 year old white boys who break windows and do more harm than good when they show up at a protest. The behaviour of the average self-described anarchist ALONE is evidence enough that anarchy would never work.

This. So very much this. I know a few anarchists. In fact, there's a large group of them who are in the same Sociology of Social Problems class with me this semester. Their ideas about how the world *should* work are absolutely laughable. Their certainty that they're right and anyone who disagrees with them is stupid is chilling. They're also very quick to suggest that Occupy Portland should be rioting to get what they want, rather than just peacefully protesting. Anarchists are the last people I want anyone listening to regarding governance of a nation.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

And this is precisely the point I was making. Sure, deep blue-state me would be perfectly happen adopting Canada's lack of laws governing abortion. Deep red-state someone else would have a BIG problem with it. Deeply Catholic Nicaraguans would probably have a *gigantic* problem. And woe betide the person who tried to take that away.

Well nobody would get to take it away because we'll just adopt that whole "right to bear arms" thing from you guys and then -nobody- will be able to take away our abortions (or our Queen).

The whole thing is just such a bad nightmare, really.

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

They're also very quick to suggest that Occupy Portland should be rioting to get what they want, rather than just peacefully protesting. Anarchists are the last people I want anyone listening to regarding governance of a nation.

Anarchist - [an-er-kist] - noun: A jerkwad who likes to break stuff and has conveniently found a self-righteous explanation for their crappy behaviour.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

This. So very much this. I know a few anarchists. In fact, there's a large group of them who are in the same Sociology of Social Problems class with me this semester. Their ideas about how the world *should* work are absolutely laughable. Their certainty that they're right and anyone who disagrees with them is stupid is chilling. They're also very quick to suggest that Occupy Portland should be rioting to get what they want, rather than just peacefully protesting. Anarchists are the last people I want anyone listening to regarding governance of a nation.

Count me in on this, too. Frankly I find much meaness and bullying behavior from most anarchists. Often, this looks to me as quite the same as one Dick Cheny, Rush Limbaugh, or Glenn Beck.

I have no interest in every single person in my country thinking exactly like I do. I do, however, want mutual respect of ideas and an ability to work together to promote liberty and justice "for all." Which takes accepting that everything will not be exactly as I would like it. But, that we all find common ground in ideas that do promote equal opportunity for the entire population.

I know, I have a streak of idealism- the fact is, I do find what is good in all and try to figure out how that can best be utilized for the whole.

Bet's take on the 25 year old white boys... usually pretty spoiled white boys as anarchists fits with what I have seen as part of and looking from the outside of social movements since the mid-1960's. In fact, you can count on them to want to run everything!