Justice as fairness: we can do better than we are

[SecretAgentMa'am]

We call ourselves Americans because the name of our country is the United States *Of America*. What the hell else are we supposed to call ourselves? USians? United Staters? And why would anyone call a person from Brazil an American? People from Brazil are Brazilians. If I'm referring to the continent as a whole I'll say "North Americans" or "South Americans" but if I'm referring to a specific country, I'm an American, Bete is a Canadian, one of my professors is a Chilean. What other words am I supposed to use?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

We call ourselves Americans because the name of our country is the United States *Of America*. What the hell else are we supposed to call ourselves? USians? United Staters? And why would anyone call a person from Brazil an American? People from Brazil are Brazilians. If I'm referring to the continent as a whole I'll say "North Americans" or "South Americans" but if I'm referring to a specific country, I'm an American, Bete is a Canadian, one of my professors is a Chilean. What other words am I supposed to use?

US Citizens? From the US? Estados Unidenses? Norte Americanos?

People from Brazil do live in America. South America.

Other people who live in the Americas hate it that we act like we are the only Americans.

Smart, intelligent, educated people in other countries in the Americas, other than Canada apparently, call themselves American and they are.

It is very US centric to say they are not, in my opinion. They do not agree that what to call ourselves is their problem.

[Cin]

For me I am willing to say that people in Latin America are responsible for their choices when they are actually allowed to make them without covert or overt interference from the right wing agenda pushing United States of America. However, that is not likely to happen anytime soon. One only needs to look at what happened recently in Honduras to understand that. No matter all the fancy footwork it was clear to other Latin American governments that the political strategy of the U.S. was to blunt and delay any efforts to restore the elected president, while pretending that a return to democracy was actually the goal. Haiti had the U.S. extensively involved in overthrowing the elected president Jean-Bertrand Aristide not once but twice. The U.S. has lost some ground over recent years but that just means they are in there fighting all the harder to to get it back one country at a time. And as always the smaller, poorer countries that are closer to the U.S. are the most at risk.

Personally I think a united Latin America would be a better idea.

All abortion is legal in Canada but current provincial policy forbids abortions from being performed in PEI. There is also free medical care in Canada but in PEI the government will only cover the cost of the abortion in a hospital in a different province under the recommendation of two doctors. So if you live in PEI even though you are supposed to be entitled to free medical care and abortion is legal in Canada you would not be able to get an abortion that was free just because you wanted one. So I suppose if P.E.I. can do it then I imagine very catholic latin american countries could also get around abortion laws.

I imagine it is disturbing and it might even piss some people off that the U.S. hogs the term American for itself. And not in the way that people are European or Asian but as their nationality. It might not annoy Canadians as much as Latin Americans because, although I know some that don't like it but think it is just part of the typical thoughtless arrogant behavior one expects from Americans, Canada hasn't been subjected to the same kind of imperialistic behavior as Latin America.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

For me I am willing to say that people in Latin America are responsible for their choices when they are actually allowed to make them without covert or overt interference from the right wing agenda pushing United States of America. However, that is not likely to happen anytime soon. One only needs to look at what happened recently in Honduras to understand that. No matter all the fancy footwork it was clear to other Latin American governments that the political strategy of the U.S. was to blunt and delay any efforts to restore the elected president, while pretending that a return to democracy was actually the goal. Haiti had the U.S. extensively involved in overthrowing the elected president Jean-Bertrand Aristide not once but twice. The U.S. has lost some ground over recent years but that just means they are in there fighting all the harder to to get it back one country at a time. And as always the smaller, poorer countries that are closer to the U.S. are the most at risk.

Personally I think a united Latin America would be a better idea.

All abortion is legal in Canada but current provincial policy forbids abortions from being performed in PEI. There is also free medical care in Canada but in PEI the government will only cover the cost of the abortion in a hospital in a different province under the recommendation of two doctors. So if you live in PEI even though you are supposed to be entitled to free medical care and abortion is legal in Canada you would not be able to get an abortion that was free just because you wanted one. So I suppose if P.E.I. can do it then I imagine very catholic Latin American countries could also get around abortion laws.

I imagine it is disturbing and it might even piss some people off that the U.S. hogs the term American for itself. And not in the way that people are European or Asian but as their nationality. It might not annoy Canadians as much as Latin Americans because, although I know some that don't like it but think it is just part of the typical thoughtless arrogant behavior one expects from Americans, Canada hasn't been subjected to the same kind of imperialistic behavior as Latin America.

Most US citizens really don't think about South America or the role the US has had and continues to have in coups, dictatorships, wars and even drugs and arms dealings.

Really glad to you do! and really get and care how it might feel to a non-US citizen.

I don't know that it would benefit to have a united Latin America, it might divide the US even more on issues like language, immigration and geopolitical borders. Would Brazil be considered Latin? I mean yes, linguistically it should be, but in the US we seem to use Latin and Latino/a for people who speak Spanish and do not live in Spain, not people who speak languages bases on Latin.....which BTW I find confusing a bit. What of other (yes small) countries who don't speak Spanish in South America?

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I don't know that it would benefit to have a united Latin America, it might divide the US even more on issues like language, immigration and geopolitical borders. Would Brazil be considered Latin? I mean yes, linguistically it should be, but in the US we seem to use Latin and Latino/a for people who speak Spanish and do not live in Spain, not people who speak languages bases on Latin.....which BTW I find confusing a bit. What of other (yes small) countries who don't speak Spanish in South America?

LOL. Everything IS about the U.S isn't it? Even though last I looked, despite their behavior, the United States doesn't actually own Latin America.

Strangely enough though when I mentioned it I was thinking about how it might actually effect Latin America itself. But I suppose when you live so close to a country that reminds one of a gigantically powerful 5 year old you do not want to do anything to piss them off too much. Still do you not think it would benefit Latin America to unite?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

LOL. Everything IS about the U.S isn't it? Even though last I looked, despite their behavior, the United States doesn't actually own Latin America.

Strangely enough though when I mentioned it I was thinking about how it might actually effect Latin America itself. But I suppose when you live so close to a country that reminds one of a gigantically powerful 5 year old you do not want to do anything to piss them off too much. Still do you not think it would benefit Latin America to unite?

I was thinking about Undocumented Workers and the wall and how the US acts already about its newest immigrants.

If the US had a united, organized force to the South, I doubt the US would behave well about it..which might not be in the interest of anyone...except maybe China and OPEC.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I was thinking about Undocumented Workers and the wall and how the US acts already about its newest immigrants.

If the US had a united, organized force to the South, I doubt the US would behave well about it..which might not be in the interest of anyone...except maybe China and OPEC.

Yes. I'm sure you are right.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I was thinking about Undocumented Workers and the wall and how the US acts already about its newest immigrants.

If the US had a united, organized force to the South, I doubt the US would behave well about it..which might not be in the interest of anyone...except maybe China and OPEC.

Actually, if I were the Chinese I would positively *encourage* the Latin American nations to unite. I would recognize them the minute they declared themselves a nation and I would be a gigantic, geopolitical Santa Claus, just *giving* this new Latin American nation all the military hardware they could ever possibly want in exchange for, say, some air bases in the northern most part of the newly created nations and perhaps docking rights for my navy. I would then spend the next decade or more, training the military of this new Latin American nation so that the Chinese and Latin American navies would be better integrated than NATO (which actually is pretty integrated).

The only fly in the ointment for that plan would probably be Russia because if I was Russia I would *absolutely* do that since that was, in fact, part of why Russia got involved in the region in the first place. As a strategic point it is just too, too, juicy a piece of low-hanging fruit for a world power interested in being able to block the United States from owning either the Pacific or Atlantic oceans or, for that matter, being able to even secure anything outside of its territorial waters. (If I were in a generous mood, I might let the United States navigate between the Pacific coast and Hawaii.) Then, when all my pieces were on the chessboard, I would make my move.
I would invade Taiwan and then *dare* the Americans to do something about it.

This isn't going to be a popular opinion here, but I think that the historical record bears it out. Nations will still continue to do 'Great Game' geopolitics, trying to set themselves up in the strategic catbird seat. Even IF the United States pulled within the *continental* borders (quitting both Hawaii and Alaska) Russia--which still has dreams of imperial greatness and China--which is playing a very long, subtle game that I doubt most Americans even realize the outer dimensions would continue to do geopolitics. They would continue to make strategic alliances that would benefit them militarily. The dream of the two major Asian powers (China and Japan) is to own the Western Pacific ocean. The dream of Russia is to own the North Atlantic. I'm not saying that the United States *should* do anything about it, it would be nice, however, if the people of the United States understood, however, that nations have strategic, geopolitical interests which they *will* pursue. Right now, we don't on either side. The Left seems to believe that nations simply don't *think* that way with the exception of the United States and the Right seems to think that the United States is the only nation that actually has any business *having* strategic interests.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I was thinking about Undocumented Workers and the wall and how the US acts already about its newest immigrants.

If the US had a united, organized force to the South, I doubt the US would behave well about it..which might not be in the interest of anyone...except maybe China and OPEC.

We probably wouldn't. It would likely be suicidal if we sat on our hands because, as I say in my prior post, if I were China nothing would make me happier than for Latin America to unite, invite a superpower in as protection against the United States and then give me a naval and air foothold right in the US backyard. That way, with joint forces, I could, at will, have a shot at completely isolating the United States.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I imagine it is disturbing and it might even piss some people off that the U.S. hogs the term American for itself. And not in the way that people are European or Asian but as their nationality. It might not annoy Canadians as much as Latin Americans because, although I know some that don't like it but think it is just part of the typical thoughtless arrogant behavior one expects from Americans, Canada hasn't been subjected to the same kind of imperialistic behavior as Latin America.

Two words, British Empire.

Cheers
Aj

[Cin]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Two words, British Empire.

Cheers
Aj

Sorry I don't see the connection. I don't see any continent named
Britain. Besides in my experience one just can't talk people out of their feelings. They are allowed to not like something. And some people from other parts of America don't like it that the people of the United States call themselves Americans and say they live in America and that people always want to come to America as though they had a monopoly on America and could just disregard the millions of people who live outside of the U.S. but also live in America.

Oh, I forgot this one. America love it or leave it.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

US Citizens? From the US? Estados Unidenses? Norte Americanos?

People from Brazil do live in America. South America.

Other people who live in the Americas hate it that we act like we are the only Americans.

Smart, intelligent, educated people in other countries in the Americas, other than Canada apparently, call themselves American and they are.

It is very US centric to say they are not, in my opinion. They do not agree that what to call ourselves is their problem.

So if Brazilians get to be Brazilian, and Canadians get to be Canadian, and the English get to be the English what word would you suggest we use for ourselves? Are you suggesting that, in the interest of respect for people in South America, we should perhaps change the name of the country from the United States of America? If so, what would you suggest the name of the country be? Or should we be Unionists or Statists? Or USians? If Americans is *not* the right short-name for citizens of the United States, what is? It's one thing to say "you shouldn't do that" it is quite another thing to say "and here is what you should do". I'm serious, Apoc, what would you prefer citizens of the United States call themselves? Citizen of the USA? Citizen of the United States? Citizen of the US? What have we done that of ALL the people in the world now, in the past or indefinitely into the future can call themselves Germans if they are from Germany or French if they are from France or Mexican if they are from Mexico but we, only we, cannot have a short name for ourselves as citizens of our nation? Why is it only us who must go through lengthy circumlocutions when the English can call themselves English even though they had an empire that lasted quite some time?

ETA: If it is because of our empire, shouldn't the same apply to the Japanese, the Chinese, the French, the British, the Turks, the Germans, the Russians and the Persians? ALL of them had empires at one point or another. Some much more recently than others and every last one of them was somewhere on the line of brutal. Shouldn't they *also* be stripped of their national names? Now, this is based *solely* on the idea that Americans--uniquely amongst nations--has been so overwhelmingly horrible to other nations that it is an *insult* to others for us to have a short-name for ourselves as a people because they are also Americans in as much as they occupy the Western Hemisphere. If it is not because of our imperial actions, then what *is* it based on because this seems to me to be a case of "America must pay for her crimes" and stripping the citizens of their national name is a good place to start.

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So if Brazilians get to be Brazilian, and Canadians get to be Canadian, and the English get to be the English what word would you suggest we use for ourselves? Are you suggesting that, in the interest of respect for people in South America, we should perhaps change the name of the country from the United States of America? If so, what would you suggest the name of the country be? Or should we be Unionists or Statists? Or USians? If Americans is *not* the right short-name for citizens of the United States, what is? It's one thing to say "you shouldn't do that" it is quite another thing to say "and here is what you should do". I'm serious, Apoc, what would you prefer citizens of the United States call themselves? Citizen of the USA? Citizen of the United States? Citizen of the US? What have we done that of ALL the people in the world now, in the past or indefinitely into the future can call themselves Germans if they are from Germany or French if they are from France or Mexican if they are from Mexico but we, only we, cannot have a short name for ourselves as citizens of our nation? Why is it only us who must go through lengthy circumlocutions when the English can call themselves English even though they had an empire that lasted quite some time?

Cheers
Aj

I'm serious here too, while admitting we will probably continue to disagree on this subject...and thats OK

Let's say France had decided to name itself the United States of Europe and expected everyone to call them and only them "Europeans"?

It would be obnoxious? Yes?

To me, its the same situation, the continent was named America and the US decided to go with naming itself the United States of America and to expect everyone to call US citizens and only US citizens "American"...and for the excuse to be that it would be awkward not to.

To me? Obnoxious.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I'm serious here too, while admitting we will probably continue to disagree on this subject...and thats OK

Let's say France had decided to name itself the United States of Europe and expected everyone to call them and only them "Europeans"?

It would be obnoxious? Yes?

To me, its the same situation, the continent was named America and the US decided to go with naming itself the United States of America and to expect everyone to call US citizens and only US citizens "American"...and for the excuse to be that it would be awkward not to.

To me? Obnoxious.

Okay, so what would you suggest that the United States of America change it's name to? You've done the easy part, saying "this is wrong and should not be done" now, what about the hard part of "and this is how you make it right". I'll accept, for the moment, your argument and stipulate that the United States should change its name from the United States of America to something else. So what *should* that name be? And how do you propose we go about convincing large numbers of citizens that we *should* change the name of our country? How would you make that case?

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Okay, so what would you suggest that the United States of America change it's name to? You've done the easy part, saying "this is wrong and should not be done" now, what about the hard part of "and this is how you make it right". I'll accept, for the moment, your argument and stipulate that the United States should change its name from the United States of America to something else. So what *should* that name be?

Cheers
Aj

I am not saying we change it, it seems way too late for that (and everyone already hates us)...I am saying we take a couple more seconds to say "US Citizens".

I am from the USA or US.

That is what I try to say

It would go a long way to mend fences.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I am not saying we change it, it seems way too late for that (and everyone already hates us)...I am saying we take a couple more seconds to say "US Citizens".

I am from the USA or US.

That is what I try to say

It would go a long way to mend fences.

Dare I ask how? I can understand "please, don't overthrow our governments, if you don't mind" or "if it's not too much trouble, you can give the mining of our harbors a miss" or "that's okay, you can keep your foreign aid" (although I bet people would be very upset if we cut the Latin American nations off) or even "look, he may be a kleptocratic son-of-a-bitch but he's *our* kleptocratic son-of-a-bitch, thank you very much". I can see how taking those sentiments into account would mend fences but not calling ourselves Americans? Are you saying that, for instance, a trade deal that might have led to more economic and cultural exchange between the US and Brazil would fail because the US delegates call themselves Americans but if they, again unlike every other people on the face of the Earth, made the extra linguistic effort to say, 'citizens of the United States' then the deal would go through? Are you going to suggest that citizens of 38 00 N, 97 00 W doing business in Brazil or Costa Rica would have an easier time of it if, instead of calling themselves Americans, they used, so that it is impossible to insult anyone, the circumlocution "I'm a 38Norther by 97 Wester"

Please help me understand precisely *how* not calling ourselves Americans would mend fences? "We can let the mining of the harbors go buy, since you call yourself a 38 Norther by 97 Wester." I mean, it would take some time to get used to the idea but calling ourselves by our longitudinal and latitudinal coordinates has the virtue of it being *impossible* to insult someone because there really is only *one* nation whose geographic center is 38 00 N, 97 00 W.

Cheers
Aj

[Cin]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Okay, so what would you suggest that the United States of America change it's name to? You've done the easy part, saying "this is wrong and should not be done" now, what about the hard part of "and this is how you make it right". I'll accept, for the moment, your argument and stipulate that the United States should change its name from the United States of America to something else. So what *should* that name be? And how do you propose we go about convincing large numbers of citizens that we *should* change the name of our country? How would you make that case?

Cheers
Aj

Maybe we could just keep our name and just stop being so myopically obnoxious.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Maybe we could just keep our name and just stop being so myopically obnoxious.

Ohhhh, if only!