A straight girl enters the queer world...

[aishah]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I agree with this. Why does anyone need to fully research to date someone? Is the same expected if someone is dating a femme or a butch? Maybe the transman needs to fully research what it means to date a straight woman.

i don't think anyone should HAVE to research. for me, researching is something i wanted to do and it was a helpful/supportive process (partly because i also spend a lot of time around trans* and genderqueer folks outside of my relationship too). for me it was more helpful in the sense of being exposed to things that represented mine and my partner's and friends' lives (because it's not like you can turn on tv and find media that resembles our experiences). so i think it can be helpful in some ways aside from even just knowledge. my butch ftm partner (who is monogamous) said the same thing of reading/watching stuff about polyamory - that it helped him to see relationships like ours.

research isn't required to treat someone respectfully wrt their pronouns and boundaries though.

[Quintease]

The first time I dated someone trans, I had a real problem acknowledging 'she' was a 'he'. I was a lesbian goddamnit! And lesbians didn't date men.
But I couldn't help myself, he was so amazing that I couldn't stay away.
It didn't help that at the time he was going through a period of discovery himself, so didn't have the confidence to fully come out.

I barely knew anything about trans, so it was invaluable to me that he took the time to talk everything through with me, to answer all of my questions, lend me books and even show me a video. It was an eye-opener which would never have happened had he been the sort to take my ignorance personally.

The second time I dated someone trans I thought I was down with the kids, I thought I knew. Of course I realised how ridiculous that was about a week later, particularly when I remembered that I was a lesbian.
Luckily my husband was happy to talk to me about anything and everything and even argue with me on occasion when our cultures clashed.

1. How important is the full understanding of trans-gender mentality and needs to be a complete partner to someone who is trans?

It's not important. What's important is she care about her partner and try to meet his needs and he do the same. In time she'll either learn on the job or he will terminate the relationship.

I find she bounces back and forth with her pronouns for him as well. Referring to him more as 'her or she' than 'him or he'. This tells me she really doesn't understand, or take this seriously.

She's probably trying to square up the two realities. If she's had a straight life up till now, none of this will fit the world she's been living in for most of her life. In time everything will start to make sense or else he'll get fed up with her and leave.

She leans on me, knowing my history as well, but I find myself at a loss to really 'knock' the information into her, to make her understand him as well as I understand my Daddy.

The two of you have different partners, different relationships. Understanding your relationship isn't necessarily going to help her with her own.

The second part of my issue, is that her lover, is highly emotional, and takes a lot of things really really personal, that aren't meant to be.

If he is not able to be a patience and tolerant educator, than she is not going to learn. Simples. He either needs to grow up or give up. Her 'manipulation' is probably the only way she knows how to defuse the situation. He feels bad, she gets a break.

[DeviantDaddy]

Well said, Quin.

[betenoire]

I guess I'm not clear on what it is about entering into this relationship that automatically "queers" your straight friend? Maybe the relationship "straights" her new boyfriend.

Afterall, gender and sexuality are not the same thing. An FTM may be queer, but he is not queer necessarily.

[Soft*Silver]

when I met my sub, he introduced me to a whole area of gay male sexuality that I had never even heard of. I introduced him to a whole culture of trans that he was unaware of. We both did ALOT of research as we got to know one another.

Learning about Oz when you are from Kansas, helps you date the lion instead of the farm hand you are use to...

[weatherboi]

I have been involved in discussions on this website in particular and have read conversations on the dash site that involved transmen and their responsibilities to themselves, their partners and their communities. It usually ends up in a conversation about our privilege and our responsibility to do more. I have always been ok with examining and owning up to it. Some of us do and some of us don't. This is true for all identities in my experience online. The OP's friend doesn't id as queer and doesnt even involve a transguy from our community so why even bring our(transguys on these forums) shortcomings or not, into it? Why is it that somebody elses struggle becomes an ok time for a member to shine a spot light on that? My proof is me, i am a feminist queer transguy that works hard on his shit. i can't speak for other ftm/transguys but my experience with my peers is some work harder than me. Lack of thread content doesn't equate transguys doing less work than femmes/people that partner up with transfolk, or there is less of an expectation on us, it just means we may process it differently or not.

Just to clarify, for me, because i have dealt with this same issue before, the sweeping generalization lies in the insinuation that lack of thread content somehow equates a lack of responsibility or accountability by transfolk/ftms/transguys on this forum or forums of past.

[BullDog]

Sweeping generalizations? How about phrases like demonizing transguys and butch vs trans? If two femmes happen to observe the same thing is it all of a sudden a femme conspiracy? Femmes against the world? Those are sweeping generalizations and very loaded and divisive language. In my book friends don't treat other friends like that no matter how much they disagree. I hope the matter can be cleared up because I do very much like you and have great respect for you and certainly do consider you a feminist.

I find the conclusions people are making about what gets discussed and what doesn't to be interesting to say the least. I am not going to comment on it any further.

[DeviantDaddy]

Seems the thread has bit busy in my absence. Amazing how discussions can open the door to numerous opinions which in turn lead to more discussions. Thank you all for partaking in this and not only adding your views but also bringing up questions.

As for the butch vs. trans topic - it is disappointing to see that something like this is coming up. It is not our intention to have such topics come up where it seems as though we are trying to box people into groups of hy, he, she, etc. The notion of sweeping generalizations regarding dating, gender and orientation is simply, weak. Every person is different, every dynamic is different and rarely will you find that one couple's journey mirrors another's. There may be similarities but it is not the same for everyone.

When I got involved with kitten, I felt responsible for explaining to her the things that set me apart from cis-men. Because it was important to me that she understood that but she took it upon herself to go a step further, and research the b-f and trans community because she knew that it was something that I am part of. It is simply the way we as individuals feel when going into a relationship. If I were to get involved with someone who had a medical condition - I would research it to better understand it. Many times I have also researched communities, dynamics and interests that someone I was interested in was involved in.

As for the OP - this thread was called a straight girl entering the queer world. Because in her decision to get involved with this man - she has entered into a new terrain. Whether he identifies as heterosexual or queer. She has been questioning her orientation. I recall her coming to me when her interest was sparked and blatantly asking me - "I'm into him, very into him, does this make me a lesbian?"

Obviously it is a question I was not able to answer for her. Such a question is opening a can of worms. But before anyone assumes that labels are something we are trying to pigeon-hole them into, understand that this isn't our intention at all. This is simply a friend who has known nothing but the heterosexual lifestyle, privileges, customs and so forth. So this has taken her for a total head spin.

As for her partner. In my honest opinion, I think he is not stepping up as he should be. But then again, that is due to my own beliefs and sense of responsibility. Everyone is different. But to address some remarks that have been made - no, he doesn't seem to be actively involved in helping, teaching or guiding.

[DaddysKitten]

Thank you everyone for your comments and input. In a brief discussion forum such as this, many details are being left out. She leans on me, perhaps too much, as it has been stated, because she finds me someone who can relate to the questions she has.

I don't feel you need to become an 'expert' on something like this, to be with someone. But when it is a completely new experience, I believe anyone who was not born with the inclinations, finding themselves in 'new' territory, researching, to understand is very very important. I know, that partly it was my need to understand the obstacles, my partner faced on a daily, basis, that he couldn't just come out and explain perfectly, brought us closer, it solidified out understanding of each other.

Most are right, the ID of someone, should not be so focused on in a relationship. But you have to remember that we are discussing someone who has entered completely new territory. And having been the straight girl, who fell madly in love with a trans-man, without it having been something I was born with the inclination to, to more fully understand it naturally, I found my own self identification important.

We aren't talking about just a label, or the [B]definition[B] of what someone is. We're discussing daily trials and tribulations, they go through. Such as, with Daddy, he has the looks to contend with. Not something he would have really just brought to me, but it was something that educating myself, I was able to understand, to better support him during these struggles. Intimately, it allowed me to be curious, and ask him detailed questions about what he was comfortable with, and what he wasn't comfortable with.

All in all, it became something that led him to really trust me, lose the fear of 'what if the straight girl doesn't want me' and replaced it with awe and appreciation because it showed him how important even the little details of his life, were to me.

There is never a cut and dry answer or reply to anything, in a relationship. Be it straight vanilla or kinky trans/bi/gay. But when so many transmen and transwomen deal with so much, that isn't easy to just make common conversation of it, this can be integral in much of the understanding we need to have to be complete partners.

As for helping, hindering, or postponing the inevitable in their relationship, I just want to say that my reasons for even beginning this thread, was to find people who may have experienced something, that I intended on bringing her to this thread to read, and learn from herself. Just as we all learn things from such writings, or even ramblings. I don't have the advice, or the help I wish I could offer her. That is why I am here. Though she is reaching out, and I remember reaching out as well. So to anyone who may agree or disagree, that is all this is about. Understanding, or hearing of anothers' experiences, is not advising someone on how to run their relationship, it is expressing an understanding, and hope that they will find something positive, to take out of it, that will help them.

Once again, thank you everyone for the replies.

[Corkey]

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...read.php?t=976

Here is the link to the SOFFA thread I was talking about, she may find some help with her issues around what she is feeling there.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by aishah

i don't think anyone should HAVE to research. for me, researching is something i wanted to do and it was a helpful/supportive process (partly because i also spend a lot of time around trans* and genderqueer folks outside of my relationship too). for me it was more helpful in the sense of being exposed to things that represented mine and my partner's and friends' lives (because it's not like you can turn on tv and find media that resembles our experiences). so i think it can be helpful in some ways aside from even just knowledge. my butch ftm partner (who is monogamous) said the same thing of reading/watching stuff about polyamory - that it helped him to see relationships like ours.

research isn't required to treat someone respectfully wrt their pronouns and boundaries though.

Agreed.

I read/research because I will *never* understand what it is like to be butch, stone butch, trans etc. I am a femme who looks like a straight, vanilla world soccer mom. As such, reading about another's life, journey etc allows me to step into their world-over and over for as many times and worlds as I can find. I love to get into someone's mind and find out how they think. For a variety of reasons, you cannot always ask as many questions as I have.

If reading/research is how someone learns, then that may be exactly what they need to do.

Additionally, reading allows you to reflect and absorb at your own pace, it gives you new questions to learn answers to and you do not have to concern yourself with how a book is going to react to your desire to learn more.

[DeviantDaddy]

I think that it is actually highly beneficial to "research" things about your partner and aspects that are critical in their lives. I know some people have mentioned that it isn't important to research their partner and such but I respectfully disagree with that notion. Specially when it comes to entering unknown terrain... smiles.

[BullDog]

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

I don't think that is the case always BullDog. I think it gets talked about more, because the flip of Transwomen dating men isn't at issue on this site as much. I think everyone has the responsibility to be respectful of each other.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't think that is the case always BullDog. I think it gets talked about more, because the flip of Transwomen dating men isn't at issue on this site as much. I think everyone has the responsibility to be respectful of each other.

There are a lot of transmen here that date lesbian/queer femmes.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

There are a lot of transmen here that date lesbian/queer femmes.

Yes, and the point? If none of the Lesbians or Queer Femmes were attracted to FTM's, and visa versa then what would we have? Butches date Femmes, Ftm's date Femmes, Femmes date whom ever they wish. I would hazard a guess that FTM's date a whole gambit of the sexual spectrum, and so do Femmes.
We all have to get to know each other, and I guess I'm wondering why you said you rarely hear of Transmen having conversations about Femmes? Maybe you just aren't listening? Or it doesn't concern you? Or you just want to point out something that is eluding me.

[DeviantDaddy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

I understand what you mean, in truth when I met kitten I was a bit lost on the subject and unable to find discussions on it. I actually had very long discussions with her when we first met. A learning experience for us both which was quite wonderful.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

You're not alone - I see this apparent lopsidedness as well.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Im confused


I thought this woman was straight?

Her dating this transman doesn't "automatically" queer her up, it's unfair at this point to say ALLL transguys are expecting this..

It's a big generalization.

[weatherboi]

Personally i think we could all do a little better understanding each other. I see and read a lot of female identified butches and male identified butches that could do some homework when it comes to understanding the things femmes go through when partnering with any of us. It is disheartening to me how many times i see this same scenario go down when threads like this get started. Butches vs Transguys when in realiity the female id'd butches and male id's butches arent any better with their understanding and support of femmes. It makes me sick!!!

BOOOOOOOO!!!!