It Hurts Me.

[Just_G]

Sorry, but slamming younger butches is never okay. That is no way to get the point across. It bothers me to see so many peopke saying that butches need to ”be trained”. We are not a bunch of animals. People are raised differently....this, to me, is not just a butch issue. I have met many people of different identities that have no respect for others. I thank God that I am well mannered, polite, and know how to treat women and human beings in general. Respect.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Just_G

Sorry, but slamming younger butches is never okay. That is no way to get the point across. It bothers me to see so many peopke saying that butches need to ”be trained”. We are not a bunch of animals. People are raised differently....this, to me, is not just a butch issue. I have met many people of different identities that have no respect for others. I thank God that I am well mannered, polite, and know how to treat women and human beings in general. Respect.

OK, I respect that.

But followed out to its logical conclusion, that leaves newer Butches who have not been around Femmes and have no idea how to act left out there with no guidance. Especially since we are all different people in different geographical locations with differing opinions of what is "good manners"

So if a Butch treats me in a way I don't like I just walk away rather than saying "hey, this is not ok for me and this is why?"

I never said Butches were a bunch of animals. I don't think that. And I think you know I don't think that . What would you do in the original poster's case?

[Novelafemme]

I think this comes down to a matter of symantics...slammed vs guidance. Two very different words with very different etemology.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Novelafemme

I think this comes down to a matter of symantics...slammed vs guidance. Two very different words with very different etemology.

I could have used a better word in my post. lol.

Just trying to say all Femmes are people and people are different and we each have our own list of what is "good manners" to us and we can't just expect all Butches to know what we want and need.

Ha, I used to expect a certain level of behavior, now I see it is not fair to have those expectations without sharing what those expectations are.

It's not a Butch/Femme thing. It's a how I need to be treated thing. What to me, is treating me with respect.

What is good manners in Upstate New York, for example is wayyyy different than what is considered good manners in Nashville.

[bright_arrow]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I could have used a better word in my post. lol.

Just trying to say all Femmes are people and people are different and we each have our own list of what is "good manners" to us and we can't just expect all Butches to know what we want and need.

Ha, I used to expect a certain level of behavior, now I see it is not fair to have those expectations without sharing what those expectations are.

It's not a Butch/Femme thing. It's a how I need to be treated thing. What to me, is treating me with respect.

What is good manners in Upstate New York, for example is wayyyy different than what is considered good manners in Nashville.

Are you saying that us Upstate New Yorkers have undesirable manners Apocalipstic?

[tara_kerrie]

Originally Posted by Just_G

Sorry, but slamming younger butches is never okay. That is no way to get the point across. It bothers me to see so many peopke saying that butches need to ”be trained”. We are not a bunch of animals. People are raised differently....this, to me, is not just a butch issue. I have met many people of different identities that have no respect for others. I thank God that I am well mannered, polite, and know how to treat women and human beings in general. Respect.

I respect your opinion G. I didn't mean they need to be trained. I have seen a few people in my area treat their partner's worse than they would treat their dog. This is the type of behavior that is unacceptable to me.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by KerrieH

I respect your opinion G. I didn't mean they need to be trained. I have seen a few people in my area treat their partner's worse than they would treat their dog. This is the type of behavior that is unacceptable to me.

I wonder if they don't know any better or are just jerks? I try to assume they don't know any better, but maybe that is condescending? Not sure.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I wonder if they don't know any better or are just jerks? I try to assume they don't know any better, but maybe that is condescending? Not sure.

They SHOULD know better they are female bodied people with the same herstory as a Femme.

The part that oogs me out is the butches the OP mentioned adopted Patriarchal way of "pimping" women out for special favors, food, and other amenities which to "me" is just downright disgusting.

I do expect more from someone who's got the same LGBTIQ culture to NOT Impose these gross behaviours upon my person.

I think we all should have that respect and expectation from one another.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

They SHOULD know better they are female bodied people with the same herstory as a Femme.

The part that oogs me out is the butches the OP mentioned adopted Patriarchal way of "pimping" women out for special favors, food, and other amenities which to "me" is just downright disgusting.

I do expect more from someone who's got the same LGBTIQ culture to NOT Impose these gross behaviours upon my person.

I think we all should have that respect and expectation from one another.

Well put! Thank you.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

They SHOULD know better they are female bodied people with the same herstory as a Femme.

The part that oogs me out is the butches the OP mentioned adopted Patriarchal way of "pimping" women out for special favors, food, and other amenities which to "me" is just downright disgusting.

I do expect more from someone who's got the same LGBTIQ culture to NOT Impose these gross behaviours upon my person.

I think we all should have that respect and expectation from one another.

this.

i think generalizing to 'everyone needs to learn good manners' kind of ignores the fact that this way of treating femmes is rooted in male/masculine supremacy/patriarchy. i've never seen a butch be told to use their "masculine charms" or "masculine wiles" to get something.

yes, everyone needs to learn good manners, but we need to unlearn that way of relating to each other. it's not okay.

[Toughy]

I went to a party a few weeks ago with someone who wanted to date me. She pulled up outside, and texted me to come on out.

Texting to come out is what I do with friends. Never ever would I do that if I was wanting to date someone or arriving to pick up a date. If this was a date, then I would be wondering lots of things about respect and how she treats dates or lovers or partners and other folks in general.

-------------------------
I hate the term lady and I cringe every time I see it used in reference to any female-bodied human including femmes. It really does smack of the patriarchy to me. A lady does this and does not do that. Ladies don't show cleavage. Ladies don't act like sluts. Ladies don't swear. Ladies don't walk down the street smoking a cigarette. Ladies cannot open a door for themselves. Ladies do dress conservatively. Ladies wear dresses. Ladies are demur and soft-spoken. I don't think the word lady has come out of my mouth (or fingers) in years upon years.

I really don't treat femmes that much differently than I treat other human beings. I open building doors for everyone including men if I get there first. I open car doors for femmes if we are all dressed up and going on a date.....not likely to do it if we are going to the beach or a hike (but I will come to your door and not text you to come out). I say yes ma'am/sir, no ma'am/sir. I will give up my seat to an elder because I still have trouble remembering I am an elder....laughin....but not always anymore because I sometimes actually do need to sit for my own health reasons.

I think manners and politeness are universal and should be used by everyone. I don't know of a culture that says it's ok to push someone out of the way or knock them down to get ahead in the line. Saying excuse me if you bump someone is another polite thing. Not talking with your mouth full is universal. Burping is ok some places and not others.

Most manners are really just plain old common sense and come from a place of caring, respect and compassion. These things have nothing to do with age....they apply to all age groups.

enough blah blah blah from me

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I hate the term lady and I cringe every time I see it used in reference to any female-bodied human including femmes. It really does smack of the patriarchy to me. A lady does this and does not do that. Ladies don't show cleavage. Ladies don't act like sluts. Ladies don't swear. Ladies don't walk down the street smoking a cigarette. Ladies cannot open a door for themselves. Ladies do dress conservatively. Ladies wear dresses. Ladies are demur and soft-spoken.

I find it interesting how much distaste out there for Lady. I don't use it, yet I know many women who do, I know many gay women who use it regularly. But still it's not common in the gay scene. I went to a lesbian friendly workshop run by a friend of mine. In one of her talks she called us 'you guys' and one of her co-organisers (straight) corrected her with 'ladies'.

[Martina]

Bears repeating

Originally Posted by Toughy

-------------------------
I hate the term lady and I cringe every time I see it used in reference to any female-bodied human including femmes. . . .

I really don't treat femmes that much differently than I treat other human beings. . . .