It Hurts Me.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Hack

Firedance,

I am very sorry this happened to you and that butches have treated you in a way that is neither respectful nor admirable.

I happen to believe that one should take great pride in the way he/she treats a femme. To me, femmes are the most amazing women because they choose to stand next to us, stand up for us, and stand with us. They do all that in the face of what can be some rather serious hostility in the world.

And honestly, a butch should know how to avoid a line, get a good table, but most importantly -- treat you properly. At all times. I believe in having a standard that I maintain with all femmes I know.

And thank you for saying you have our (collective) back. I have found that sometimes girls say that, but then their actions don't reflect that. It is nice to encounter a femme who backs it up.

Best,
Jake

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!

[macele]

from my point of view, i don't see this as a butch problem, ... but rather a lack of tact. to say things such as this is offensive. i've never done it. i've never thought about asking a woman to do it.

this feels like a butch trying to act like some heterosexual men do. i grew up, and i am still in a heterosexual world. i try to stay away from most things hetero, in regards to relationships. obviously i can't with all things. but something like this can be avoided if i don't pick up the tactless practices of some heterosexual men.

when i think of a lesbian butch, i think of sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy.

good thread. thanks firedance.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by macele

from my point of view, i don't see this as a butch problem, ... but rather a lack of tact. to say things such as this is offensive. i've never done it. i've never thought about asking a woman to do it.

this feels like a butch trying to act like some heterosexual men do. i grew up, and i am still in a heterosexual world. i try to stay away from most things hetero, in regards to relationships. obviously i can't with all things. but something like this can be avoided if i don't pick up the tactless practices of some heterosexual men.

when i think of a lesbian butch, i think of sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy.

good thread. thanks firedance.

There are some very NOT "sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy" Butch Lesbians around.

There are hard assed very very masculine Butch Lesbians out there. Sometimes, these Butches need some guidance from friends and Femmes on how to act. lol

Not trying to be argumentative

[thedivahrrrself]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

There are some very NOT "sensitive. sweet. caring. with touches of tomboy" Butch Lesbians around.

There are hard assed very very masculine Butch Lesbians out there. Sometimes, these Butches need some guidance from friends and Femmes on how to act. lol

Not trying to be argumentative

I completely agree. And the hardass ones can be a lot of fun, but sometimes they need a little "training" LOL We call those "rough around the edges".

[Hack]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!

I don't disagree, my friend. But I will push back just a bit and say that I have always been a respectful, well-mannered guy. It comes from how I was raised and who raised me. I was raised around Old World/Old School gentlemen who treated women like goddesses. That is imprinted on me, and always has been.



Jake

[tara_kerrie]

Originally Posted by Hack

I don't disagree, my friend. But I will push back just a bit and say that I have always been a respectful, well-mannered guy. It comes from how I was raised and who raised me. I was raised around Old World/Old School gentlemen who treated women like goddesses. That is imprinted on me, and always has been.



Jake

Nice to meet you Jake. I agree 100%

[tara_kerrie]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

All true.

However, younger or newer Butches, who have not been around our dynamic, sometimes need some guidance in the what is and is not cool to say, and how to get tables, open doors and all the wonderful things you guys do for us!

I am one of the younger or newer butches that you mentioned BUT I do treat ladies with respect. I try to always open doors for her. I would NEVER dream of asking her to do anything like mentioned above.
It frustrates me that my generation and younger do not have these values and morals taught to them as they are growing up.
I was raised by a preacher to say yes ma'am, no ma'am, etc. he taught the boys to open doors for ladies. He taught them to be respectful no matter what. When I came out I adopted those values for me.
A promise to all the femme's reading this...i will NEVER treat a lady the way that some of you have been treated.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by KerrieH

I am one of the younger or newer butches that you mentioned BUT I do treat ladies with respect. I try to always open doors for her. I would NEVER dream of asking her to do anything like mentioned above.
It frustrates me that my generation and younger do not have these values and morals taught to them as they are growing up.
I was raised by a preacher to say yes ma'am, no ma'am, etc. he taught the boys to open doors for ladies. He taught them to be respectful no matter what. When I came out I adopted those values for me.
A promise to all the femme's reading this...i will NEVER treat a lady the way that some of you have been treated.

Ha, I was raised by a preacher too, maybe that ios why I love nice manners.

I hope I did not sound like I was slamming younger Butches, just that in some cases people need to be told how we expect to be treated.

[tara_kerrie]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Ha, I was raised by a preacher too, maybe that ios why I love nice manners.

I hope I did not sound like I was slamming younger Butches, just that in some cases people need to be told how we expect to be treated.

Apoc, in this case I think slamming younger butches is a good thing. They need to learn!

[Just_G]

Sorry, but slamming younger butches is never okay. That is no way to get the point across. It bothers me to see so many peopke saying that butches need to ”be trained”. We are not a bunch of animals. People are raised differently....this, to me, is not just a butch issue. I have met many people of different identities that have no respect for others. I thank God that I am well mannered, polite, and know how to treat women and human beings in general. Respect.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Just_G

Sorry, but slamming younger butches is never okay. That is no way to get the point across. It bothers me to see so many peopke saying that butches need to ”be trained”. We are not a bunch of animals. People are raised differently....this, to me, is not just a butch issue. I have met many people of different identities that have no respect for others. I thank God that I am well mannered, polite, and know how to treat women and human beings in general. Respect.

OK, I respect that.

But followed out to its logical conclusion, that leaves newer Butches who have not been around Femmes and have no idea how to act left out there with no guidance. Especially since we are all different people in different geographical locations with differing opinions of what is "good manners"

So if a Butch treats me in a way I don't like I just walk away rather than saying "hey, this is not ok for me and this is why?"

I never said Butches were a bunch of animals. I don't think that. And I think you know I don't think that . What would you do in the original poster's case?

[Novelafemme]

I think this comes down to a matter of symantics...slammed vs guidance. Two very different words with very different etemology.

[tara_kerrie]

Originally Posted by Just_G

Sorry, but slamming younger butches is never okay. That is no way to get the point across. It bothers me to see so many peopke saying that butches need to ”be trained”. We are not a bunch of animals. People are raised differently....this, to me, is not just a butch issue. I have met many people of different identities that have no respect for others. I thank God that I am well mannered, polite, and know how to treat women and human beings in general. Respect.

I respect your opinion G. I didn't mean they need to be trained. I have seen a few people in my area treat their partner's worse than they would treat their dog. This is the type of behavior that is unacceptable to me.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by KerrieH

I respect your opinion G. I didn't mean they need to be trained. I have seen a few people in my area treat their partner's worse than they would treat their dog. This is the type of behavior that is unacceptable to me.

I wonder if they don't know any better or are just jerks? I try to assume they don't know any better, but maybe that is condescending? Not sure.