Opinions

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I'm only 37 and I remember (I was in a different country but we had similar laws) not allowing my gf a motorbike because if she died, I knew her family would lock me out of the hospital room and the funeral. They hated the fact she was gay.

I had friends who got kicked out of rented premises for being gay and others lost their job. I currently know people who are fighting American immigration. In my own country gay marriage is still not allowed and until recently, transpeople had to be 'biologically infertile' in order to change their birth certificate.

People can turn this into a class issue all they want, but it's not. Gay people are second class regardless of class and we need to change that. This means that gay people of all classes and privilege are getting involved. I know closeted lawyers who are sticking their neck out to fight for LGBT asylum seekers. Being privileged does not necessarily mean you don't care, if fact it can mean you can achieve more. Just like Obama has done in the hearts and minds of the American people. He told the people who voted him in that he feels that gay marriage is OK. These people may even listen to Obama, they wanted him to rule the country after all.

You think all queer people are treated just as horribly as each other? If a white middle or upper class gay/lesbian is treated as a second class citizen, then everyone else in the community is third or fourth class citizen. You think that a queer person from the south east Asian community who has to deal with the myriad of racist stereotypes about their community both within their community and outside of it is treated the same way as a white middle class gay men? How about other queer people of colour? I certainly don't think a working class gay black man and a middle class gay white man are getting the same shit end of the stick. A queer person living with a physical disability? There is a huge prejudicial gap, and marriage isn't going to mean shit with regards to basic human rights for many of these people.

You write that "This means that gay people of all classes and privilege are getting involved." That's not a very accurate statement. In fact, it's a pretty visible reality that those arguing for many mainstream gay/lesbian issues are not members of the most marginalised groups. They are by and large not people of colour, people with disabilities, people living below the poverty line or sex workers. Nor are they overwhelmingly poly folks. It's the same as with most popular "rights" movements today, from Occupy to the It Gets Better campaign. And the minute these people get their token law past or their five minutes of fame, they aren't going to give a shit about anything else. Exactly as its happened in Canada.

As far as turning it into an immigration issue, barely means shit for immigration...the system here continues to screw queer immigrants and refugees no matter what the nation's stance is on same-sex marriage. Until those seen as the "bottom of the barrel" are seen as legitimate human beings by society and governing bodies, there are always going to be horror stories about queer and trans people being locked away for months, denied immigration or refugee status, abused horribly. And as aishah said so well, "trick-down equality" is bullshit. As I said before, you want to espouse marriage equality as your primary rights fight, fine, but don't make it out to be a fight for all queer and trans people, because a fuck ton of us haven't (and won't) gained shit from that struggle, and it will be a cold day in hell before we do.

Edit: At this point, at least from the perspective of a Canadian, it becomes clear to me that a lot of policies are superficial and mean very little as far as how a person is going to be treated in day to day life. It means little in actually protecting people with these policies. Policies often act as a means of reinforcing the current liberal "feel good" view point that X policy is in place, everyone is equal. Personally, I think it's about time queer rights movements and feminist movements learn from the past...that this "trickle down" approach that sees certain privileged people as the target population for these policies as simply "opening the door" for others, is just an illusion. Most of the time that isn't what these policies mean at all. It's time to learn that truth and start fighting for rights for those who need them most urgently...and by urgently I mean those whose lives are most immediately in danger. People who are still actively being denied housing and employment. People who are still actively being verbally and physically assaulted on a regular basis and who have no advocates to stand up for them. I mean sex workers, I mean the homeless, I mean prisoners and others who whether because of additional racism, sexist, homophobic or transphobic challenges, or due to the fact that they live with mental illness or were diagnosed with mental illness, or live with physical disabilities, are believed to have no one to stand up for them when authoritative bodies lock them away as incapable of ruling over their own lives. Lock them away simply because they are visible. Lock them away because they believe they're nothing but trash.

[Quintease]

Putting it beautifully in Australia

[Apocalipstic]

Again,

Thank you President Obama for saying what you did about Gay marriage. NO other sitting President has ever done that.

I will not participate in picking apart what he said.

I never ever thought a day would come when I was not afraid to walk down the street or go in a bar without being killed or ending up in jail.

I am grateful and proud of President Obama.

[BullDog]

White, middle class people are not the only people who get married.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by BullDog

White, middle class people are not the only people who get married.

I was waiting for someone to say that.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by BullDog

White, middle class people are not the only people who get married.

My point, exactly. Trans people of all income levels get married. Very poor people get married. The benefits to them are many, and that seems to be the issue here. Why are lgbt people who don't believe we should be working on marriage equality in the habit of telling me that marriage is a privileged state precisely BECAUSE it brings financial benefits? If it's so privileged, why is it just as easy for a poor person to get married as a wealthy one? And, what's wrong with anyone accessing a state that brings some financial stability?

I don't have the energy to search through this thread to find Ender's post wherein he asserts that there's no real benefit to bi-national couples who want to marry. That pissed me right off, but I'm already so irritated that I decided not to answer. That's a flat out ridiculous assertion, and there are a few people on this site who would be breathing fire if they were to have read it because of how deeply their forced seperation hurts them. There are far too many lgbt binational couples who are kept apart by their inability to marry. Amongst my friends, the butch member of the binational couple in the direst circumstance due to marriage inequality is a low-income woman of colour. There, now. Does that mean you can care about marriage equality now?

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

My point, exactly. Trans people of all income levels get married. Very poor people get married. The benefits to them are many, and that seems to be the issue here. Why are lgbt people who don't believe we should be working on marriage equality in the habit of telling me that marriage is a privileged state precisely BECAUSE it brings financial benefits? If it's so privileged, why is it just as easy for a poor person to get married as a wealthy one? And, what's wrong with anyone accessing a state that brings some financial stability?

There are people in this thread whose sole argument against marriage seems to be that minorities won't have access to it. That's crazy. Straight people don't have to be white to be married. In fact any old poor, non-white, sex-working, non-monogamist with a criminal record can put a ring on their beloved's finger, provided they're of the opposite sex. But not gays of any ilk*.

In my own life I've had TWO ''gay" marriages. One to a TRANS MAN from a working class background (as am I from a working class background) and another to a woman who was NON WHITE and wasn't even born in the western world. Part of the reason we broke up was because she wanted to return to her part of the world which didn't recognise gay marriage (the other part was because she was an asshole, but enough about that).

Earlier I posted a link to a Facebook page. If anyone believes that Bi-national couples don't need marriage, please click on it.


*depending where you live of course

[DapperButch]

I admit to not reading every single post, but I think I pretty much have the jist here.

Not to sound ageist here, BUT, I do think that age may play a part in how significant one sees this announcement.

First, living history is different from reading/hearing about it, so the feeling of validation from the President after spending a chunk of your life sneaking into gay bars, or just worrying about being beat the hell up (with societal support), is pretty damn powerful.

Additionally, for those of us who are looking ahead to retirement and death, we tend to think about what we will need as we age and also what we will be leaving to our partners (including social security benefits). When I was in my late 20's or early 30's, this stuff wasn't as important to me. Now that I am 41 (and also had a serious health condition), I do.

I guess I am saying two things. One is tangible and one is not. Both are important.

One, for some of us Obama's announcement is the highest validation that we are just people, just like anyone else. We haven't heard that before. There is reason to believe that this will trickle down to how N. American society views, and then subsequently, treats us (like when I, a butch, am laying in a hospital bed and need my pain pill, the nurses might not move as slow to give it to me as they do now).

Two, there is more hope now that I will be able to marry my partner and she can get my social security benefits at my death. Yeah, that is a big deal.

Late for work or I would clean the above up a bit. Hope it makes sense.