The Femmes That Love You...

[Beloved]

Nomad, you are not wrong to be attracted to what you like. Period.

What's the line between fetishizing and preference? Well, to me fetishes aren't people. You would have to be seeing the person as an object and not a person. For example, if you felt like any transman would do JUST because he is trans...that's a fetish to me. If you didn't care about him as a person. To me a preference is being very attracted to a certain kind of person, but taking each person on an individual basis, and finding out if you would be a good match, if you enjoy each others company, getting to know the person behind the attributes you are attracted to.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. But I think you need to tell those women to "suck it." You are allowed to be attracted to whatever you like. It's really none of their business. They sound insecure in their own identity.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Beloved

Nomad, you are not wrong to be attracted to what you like. Period.

What's the line between fetishizing and preference? Well, to me fetishes aren't people. You would have to be seeing the person as an object and not a person. For example, if you felt like any transman would do JUST because he is trans...that's a fetish to me. If you didn't care about him as a person. To me a preference is being very attracted to a certain kind of person, but taking each person on an individual basis, and finding out if you would be a good match, if you enjoy each others company, getting to know the person behind the attributes you are attracted to.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. But I think you need to tell those women to "suck it." You are allowed to be attracted to whatever you like. It's really none of their business. They sound insecure in their own identity.

Yeah, finding that line between fetishizing and preference is tricky, I think. I used to think dating someone just because they're trans was kind of insulting and fetishizing. Today I feel differently, and just prefer to be with queer people who are attracted to transguys (just as someone can be typically attracted to bears, twinks, butches, femmes, genderqueer folks, women in general, men in general etc.) It really is how the individual sees.

But what I really dislike is how you hear some queer women, particularly lesbians of various identities (and sometimes gay men, though from what I hear, I would probably notice it more if I were into cis gay men, since other transguys I know talk about this happening to them with gay men as well), now speculating on sleeping with transmen "out of curiosity." Basically, just becoming a novelty fuck. Kind of like the transguy version of that Katie Perry song. That lands over the fetishizing line for me.

But I don't think what you posted, Nomad, is fetishizing. That just sounds like preference, and you aren't the one with the problem when other people call you all sorts of things based on your preference. Unfortunately not all lgbt-identified folks are open to other people's preferences and experiences.

[iamkeri1]

If I am attracted to someone why should I have to question to whom or why I am attracted? There have been beautiful femmes in my past that I have been attracted to/involved with, and if the right femme came along, a woman of power, love and kindness, such an attraction might still occur. In my more recent history, however, it has been primarily ftm's with whom I have been involved, though relationships with two of them began as woman to (I thought) woman attractions and later I became aware of their gender discomfort.

I think butches, whether male or female identified are HOT and they attract me. I think FTM's are HOT and they attract me. But what really attracts me is self knowledge and self acceptance. I am attracted to butches who self identify as butches, who like being butch and who are attracted to femmes. For FTM's, it is fine with me that they live as male rather than trans, but they must have come out of the queer community and be attracted to femmes, because I want my own identity to be acknowledged at least by them. I do not want a ftm to be attracted to me thinking I am a straight women. I want my queerness to be acknowledged.

If I met a woman who (to me) was butch as hell, but who did not identify as butch, I would worry that her involvement with me would make her feel pressured to be "more butch" or could result in her pressuring me to be "less femme." This I do not want.
Smooches,
Keri

[thedivahrrrself]

From deviantdaddy:
I cannot speak for him, of course. But at least from my experience when she does get fired up and so worked up while I just shrug it off or roll my eyes... it isn't really about not caring. It is more about, as sad as it may sound, it's more about getting so used to it that it doesn't effect you the same as someone who has not experienced it before.

I actually feel a bit saddened by her having to see such things and experiencing them vicariously through me. But it is incredible to be loved by a woman who will stand by your side through it all.


Though I am femme, I've always been a bit of a weirdo, so I've been stared at much of my life for one reason or another. Now, of course, this doesn't equate to the level of staring that my butch/trans friends get, but it gives me a complementary coping mechanism.

So, I guess I'm past the point of getting upset when someone stares at him or gives us an odd look. I swell with pride, lift my head, and hold his hand a little tighter. Let them stare. I am proud of us.

[Beloved]

Originally Posted by iamkeri1

For FTM's, it is fine with me that they live as male rather than trans, but they must have come out of the queer community and be attracted to femmes, because I want my own identity to be acknowledged at least by them. I do not want a ftm to be attracted to me thinking I am a straight women. I want my queerness to be acknowledged.

Ok...I found this idea rather interesting. I am currently dating an FTM that was never a part of the queer community. We met online and before I met him in person I wondered how he would differ than FTM's I met that were in the queer community for years. Those are the only ones I have ever known.

He was in a heterosexual relationship/marriage for 20 years and even has 2 children that he bore himself. He didn't have any romantic relations with women/femmes at all until transitioning.

Yes, his experiences and perspectives are different but you know what? I am LOVING IT! And he knows I identify as queer and I do not feel any less queer being with him. He's absolutely amazing. I don't care how he identifies. He doesn't really identify himself as queer but he realizes that because he's trans, that's kinda queer in itself.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by iamkeri1

If I am attracted to someone why should I have to question to whom or why I am attracted? There have been beautiful femmes in my past that I have been attracted to/involved with, and if the right femme came along, a woman of power, love and kindness, such an attraction might still occur. In my more recent history, however, it has been primarily ftm's with whom I have been involved, though relationships with two of them began as woman to (I thought) woman attractions and later I became aware of their gender discomfort.

I think butches, whether male or female identified are HOT and they attract me. I think FTM's are HOT and they attract me. But what really attracts me is self knowledge and self acceptance. I am attracted to butches who self identify as butches, who like being butch and who are attracted to femmes. For FTM's, it is fine with me that they live as male rather than trans, but they must have come out of the queer community and be attracted to femmes, because I want my own identity to be acknowledged at least by them. I do not want a ftm to be attracted to me thinking I am a straight women. I want my queerness to be acknowledged.

If I met a woman who (to me) was butch as hell, but who did not identify as butch, I would worry that her involvement with me would make her feel pressured to be "more butch" or could result in her pressuring me to be "less femme." This I do not want.
Smooches,
Keri

i get this. i really do. i dont want to be thought of as straight.

[Beloved]

Originally Posted by Nomad

i get this. i really do. i dont want to be thought of as straight.

So I have a question for you. If you are with someone who is trans than he must be out to everyone as trans so other people don't think you could be a straight couple?

If the person I am with accepts that I am queer, that is enough for me. My ID isn't dependent on anyone else. I'm really unaffected how others may perceive me based on what kind of relationship they think I'm in.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by Beloved

So I have a question for you. If you are with someone who is trans than he must be out to everyone as trans so other people don't think you could be a straight couple?

If the person I am with accepts that I am queer, that is enough for me. My ID isn't dependent on anyone else. I'm really unaffected how others may perceive me based on what kind of relationship they think I'm in.

Oh god, I go through this all the time! I HATE outing my husband, but whenever I don't out myself to lesbians (I have a rule that I don't ever out him to str8 people or gay men) they immediately assume I've 'gone straight'. It doesn't matter if they know I was a lesbian for 15 years, or that I'm part of an LGBT organisation, or even that I was once married to a woman. The fact that I'm with a man now makes me 'straight'. Knowing he is trans however changes that, they are still confused but at least I can be queer.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Beloved

So I have a question for you. If you are with someone who is trans than he must be out to everyone as trans so other people don't think you could be a straight couple?

If the person I am with accepts that I am queer, that is enough for me. My ID isn't dependent on anyone else. I'm really unaffected how others may perceive me based on what kind of relationship they think I'm in.

this kinda pisses me off and i'm not sure why but i'm gonna make myself perfectly clear here: my i.d. isnt 'dependent' on anyone else either. if you re-read the part i highlighted in red in the post Keri wrote you'll see that neither her or my statement was about random "others". it was about the other person in the relationship.

Keri wrote: ... I want my own identity to be acknowledged at least by them. I do not want a ftm to be attracted to me thinking I am a straight women. I want my queerness to be acknowledged....

my statement was an agreement with what Keri said about the person i'm dating not regarding me as straight. if i'm dating someone who happens to be transgendered it had pretty damn well better be clear to them who i am or i havent done my job of getting to know them and letting them know me and we have no business dating. i am not straight, period and end of sentence. my identity and my identifying words are just as important as anyone elses and i wont be negated by them or anyone. having the chutzpah to follow your truth and become who you are isnt the property of transgendered people. why should my i.d. take a back seat to someone elses just because they may i.d differently than i do or because their process of becoming who they are was different or maybe harder than mine? i've had a journey in life too. i'm still standing and still active in my pursuit of that journey and i'm proud of that. i'm even more proud of it because i'm still standing in my truth as a queer femme. if the person i wanted to date (no matter who they are or what their own identity truth is) wouldnt accept who i identify as and wont make room for me to be who i am completely then they get their permanent walking papers and they can sort out their regrets over that on someone elses watch because i wont have it. been f*cking there, done f*cking that and got the f*cking trashed self-esteem!

deep breath

sorry for getting all verklempt Beloved! i'm gonna ask your forgiveness here because i think i'm seriously having a flash back or something!

your question is a valid one it's just not at all what i was trying to convey. i should have been more clear earlier. i had an experience where someone else got to take up all the room when it came to gender identity and there wasnt any room for me. what i mean by that is that they stopped being able to see me when it came to identity because they were so intensely focused on themselves and their own identity that there wasnt room for anyone else in the same space. we couldnt even talk about it without serious tension taking over. i'm not talking about selfishness because i dont think of them as selfish. it just felt like who they were to the rest of the world, identity and character, was more important than who they were to me. writing my response to your post made me recall how i felt when i realized that they'd lost sight of who i am, both in identity and character too. it wasnt malicious or anything. it's just what happened. my friend also didnt see that who they were actually presenting to the world had nothing to do with their identity as they perceived it. there was so much tension around the issue of identity and gender that they didnt really show the world the warm and interesting person they were.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Yeah, finding that line between fetishizing and preference is tricky, I think. I used to think dating someone just because they're trans was kind of insulting and fetishizing. Today I feel differently, and just prefer to be with queer people who are attracted to transguys (just as someone can be typically attracted to bears, twinks, butches, femmes, genderqueer folks, women in general, men in general etc.) It really is how the individual sees.

The first transguy I dated liked me partly as I wasn't attracted to transguys. In his eyes that made my attraction for him more 'genuine'. My current partner, my husband, partly liked me as I was attracted to a broad range of identities, therefore he felt safe that it was 'him' I was attracted to and not the novelty of his gender. I found both of these attitudes quite normal and understandable at the time.

Now I'm not so sure. What if we split and I discover in the future that I'm no longer interested in having a relationship with a cis-gendered woman? That I'm still not attracted to cis-gendered men and that what I really want is another transguy? What is the next transguy going to think when he discovers that I've purposely sought him out, not just because he's hot, but because he's trans? These are things I can't help but wonder. Will he think I'm a fetishising cowbag?

Susie Bright provided part of my answer by interviewing a long since transitioned transman (no idea of his name) who assured her readers that he was not offended by the idea of fetishisation. In fact he'd found it made lesbians more likely to consider him a potential partner. I know if I met a boy who demanded I be attracted to cis-gendered men also, or accused me of demeaning the entire trans community by only wanting to date a transman, then I probably wouldn't want to date him anyway.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Quintease

The first transguy I dated liked me partly as I wasn't attracted to transguys. In his eyes that made my attraction for him more 'genuine'. My current partner, my husband, partly liked me as I was attracted to a broad range of identities, therefore he felt safe that it was 'him' I was attracted to and not the novelty of his gender. I found both of these attitudes quite normal and understandable at the time.

Now I'm not so sure. What if we split and I discover in the future that I'm no longer interested in having a relationship with a cis-gendered woman? That I'm still not attracted to cis-gendered men and that what I really want is another transguy? What is the next transguy going to think when he discovers that I've purposely sought him out, not just because he's hot, but because he's trans? These are things I can't help but wonder. Will he think I'm a fetishising cowbag?

Susie Bright provided part of my answer by interviewing a long since transitioned transman (no idea of his name) who assured her readers that he was not offended by the idea of fetishisation. In fact he'd found it made lesbians more likely to consider him a potential partner. I know if I met a boy who demanded I be attracted to cis-gendered men also, or accused me of demeaning the entire trans community by only wanting to date a transman, then I probably wouldn't want to date him anyway.

Yeah, it depends on the individual. I'm definitely one of those guys who would prefer that a woman I'm with be attracted to transguys (hopefully in conjunction with another sex other than normative cismen..like, queer in some way or other). I won't date straight-identified women, personally. I prefer to date women who are somehow within the lgbt and/or queer spectrum. But at the same time it really depends not so much on someone identifies on the lgbtq spectrum, but how they see you.

Is part of the fetishisation the incorrect idea that transguys are "both a man and a woman" or or a man with whatever assumption about genitalia, or "or an x that used to be a y," or "the body and/or identity of this with the emotional capabilities of that" and so on? If so that's problematic to me...but not to other guys who might identify with that. So yeah, totally individual.

I think its trying to strike that balance between curiosity or interest and making sure to see someone as they see themselves and respecting who they are. So maybe the line isn't always between preference and fetishisation, but between the kind of fetishisation where other people place an identity on top of an individual instead of having a fetish for the identity the person actually has.

I think it depends on the politics of the transguy, too, and the way they see being trans. Some guys just want to be "a normal cis guy," see trans as a "period in their lives" or a "birth defect" and so identifying as straight and being with women who aren't into transguys or who are just into guys generally might make sense for them.

Other transguys prefer to be transguys and not seen as the same sex as cisguys (some hate being mistaken for cismen as much as they hate being mistaken for female and prefer to occupy a more transmale ground or an area that might be "confusing" to many people), with transmale as a different sex entirely than cismale or cisfemale. Just the way many lesbians are only into women or "straight"-identified women only into cismen, I think its logical that some people might largely be into trans people as sexes of their own or also into trans people in addition to other sexes/genders/identities or whatever.

Originally Posted by Nomad

i get this. i really do. i dont want to be thought of as straight.

Right there with you...but I hate how people always assume that if they interpret the people you fuck or have a relationship with as X then you must be Y. Which is why queer is so awesome. No little sex/gender criteria to meet to qualify for a sexuality lol Another transguy I know calls me straight sometimes just to piss me off...and it really fucking works, too. If you want to insult me, call me straight

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Yeah, it depends on the individual. I'm definitely one of those guys who would prefer that a woman I'm with be attracted to transguys (hopefully in conjunction with another sex other than normative cismen..like, queer in some way or other). I won't date straight-identified women, personally. I prefer to date women who are somehow within the lgbt and/or queer spectrum. But at the same time it really depends not so much on someone identifies on the lgbtq spectrum, but how they see you.

Is part of the fetishisation the incorrect idea that transguys are "both a man and a woman" or or a man with whatever assumption about genitalia, or "or an x that used to be a y," or "the body and/or identity of this with the emotional capabilities of that" and so on? If so that's problematic to me...but not to other guys who might identify with that. So yeah, totally individual.

I think its trying to strike that balance between curiosity or interest and making sure to see someone as they see themselves and respecting who they are. So maybe the line isn't always between preference and fetishisation, but between the kind of fetishisation where other people place an identity on top of an individual instead of having a fetish for the identity the person actually has.

I think it depends on the politics of the transguy, too, and the way they see being trans. Some guys just want to be "a normal cis guy," see trans as a "period in their lives" or a "birth defect" and so identifying as straight and being with women who aren't into transguys or who are just into guys generally might make sense for them.

Other transguys prefer to be transguys and not seen as the same sex as cisguys (some hate being mistaken for cismen as much as they hate being mistaken for female and prefer to occupy a more transmale ground or an area that might be "confusing" to many people), with transmale as a different sex entirely than cismale or cisfemale. Just the way many lesbians are only into women or "straight"-identified women only into cismen, I think its logical that some people might largely be into trans people as sexes of their own or also into trans people in addition to other sexes/genders/identities or whatever.

a-freakin-men!


Right there with you...but I hate how people always assume that if they interpret the people you fuck or have a relationship with as X then you must be Y. Which is why queer is so awesome. No little sex/gender criteria to meet to qualify for a sexuality lol Another transguy I know calls me straight sometimes just to piss me off...and it really fucking works, too. If you want to insult me, call me straight

'qualify for a sexuality' i get this image of filling out forms, providing references , going for a series of interviews and then waiting to hear the decision: 'ms. nomad, the committee has decided that you qualify as................................................ ...... QUEER!!'

[iamkeri1]

Quintease, I love your posts!
This is the journey I have been on since my husbands death, and like you, I gave it a lot of thought throughout our relationship, fully aware that it would be a dilema I would face if he died before I did. (The two of us breaking up was never a considertion.) Since his death I dated one ftm off and on for a couple of years and one stone butch LDR for a few months. My FTM partner felt the problem in our relationship was that he was not "queer" enough for me. I did not and do not agree, our problems lay elsewhere. He actually was the one who got me back face to face in the queer community where my previous queer world was strictly online. I am grateful to him for that, though we are no longer together. I am currently unattached and comfortable with that for the short term. I'm still trying to figure out who I am and where my attraction lies.

My SIL gave me this particular piece of wisdom and it steadies me in my search for myself and my future love. "Sweetie, don't stress about this. One day you will meet someone. You will know they are the right person for you and it won't matter to you whether they are male, female or somewhere in between. They will simply be the right person for you."

PS Q, you are not a cowbag of any variety. as my FTM partner used to say. "you're putting too much thought into it", LOL!

[QUOTE=Quintease;620306]
Now I'm not so sure. What if we split and I discover in the future that I'm no longer interested in having a relationship with a cis-gendered woman? That I'm still not attracted to cis-gendered men and that what I really want is another transguy? What is the next transguy going to think when he discovers that I've purposely sought him out, not just because he's hot, but because he's trans? These are things I can't help but wonder. Will he think I'm a fetishising cowbag?
QUOTE]

[Beloved]

Nomad,

Whoa! My intensional was not to piss you off and I'm sorry about that. I was just trying to ask some questions to understand where you were coming from. I was trying I explain how I felt about the whole thing. I'm on lunch break at work and I am posting from my phone. I don't like posting from my phone so this will be short. For now I just want to apologize for making you so angry. More to come at a later time.

Edit: I've never had the experience of a partner not validating that I'm queer. So I guess I didn't really understand what you were talking about. And until you gave more of an example I couldn't really imagine it. I think that is the basis of my misunderstanding here.

Maybe I should stick to the fun and fluff threads. *sigh*. I don't think I do as well in serious discussions online as I do in person. Real time communication works so much better for me.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Beloved

Nomad,

Whoa! My intensional was not to piss you off and I'm sorry about that. I was just trying to ask some questions to understand where you were coming from. I was trying I explain how I felt about the whole thing. I'm on lunch break at work and I am posting from my phone. I don't like posting from my phone so this will be short. For now I just want to apologize for making you so angry. More to come at a later time.

Edit: I've never had the experience of a partner not validating that I'm queer. So I guess I didn't really understand what you were talking about. And until you gave more of an example I couldn't really imagine it. I think that is the basis of my misunderstanding here.

Maybe I should stick to the fun and fluff threads. *sigh*. I don't think I do as well in serious discussions online as I do in person. Real time communication works so much better for me.

i was apologizing to you. in my apology i acknowledged that i was unexpectedly triggered into feelings i thought were old news (pls note my flash back comment). i dont blame you for that and my apology is a sincere one. i didnt delete my original response because i felt there were valid points in it that were part of the original discussion but if you'll re-read the second half of my post you'll see that i apologized and i also said that i thought your question was a valid one and that i should have been clearer to begin with.

i feel like this is real time communication. it's real and it takes time. just like face to face conversation. there's no reason i can see that you should suggest that you dont do well in serious discussions on line. discussions are often uncomfortable and people make mistakes in them. i made a mistake. i apologized. i was sincere. that's all i can do.

[Quintease]

This is hilarious! http://www.darcomic.org/2008/11/11/titles/