The Femmes That Love You...

[aishah]

nomad...i've found some lesbians can be somewhat trans*phobic and/or not accepting of trans*men. perhaps their anger could be coming from that place...?

there is also an issue (which came up in this thread) of people being concerned about those who only date trans*men as seeing them as something less than men, or invalidating their masculinity. like the idea that trans*men are somehow not men or more sensitive than cismen or whatever i think is where a huge part of this objection comes from...i mean, i know trans*guys who don't identify as queer at all, they identify as straight men, period, end of story, so does that really make their masculinity queer? if they do not define it that way? there are other trans*men who may only be attracted to femmes or who still identify as queer/on the butch/femme spectrum.

i think that's a really sticky subject and it probably depends on the person as to whether or not that's an issue. generally speaking the issue of preference can be really touchy. i mean...i think it depends on where someone's preferences come from. some preferences are just preferences. some preferences are shaped by norms that can be really oppressive and problematic. (such as the preference for thinness, able-bodiedness, race, etc.) sometimes it's just about chemistry or attraction and it's not something anyone can control.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

No it's how you feel and what turns you on , if these women cannot respect your personal preferences that's their problem not your's. Next time they bring it up tell them you don't judge them for what they like they have no right to judge you for what you like. Maybe you need to introduce them to the planet so they can see there are others that feel differently and the same about things as they do. Educate them.

i shoulda had the chutzpah to say all of that!

Originally Posted by Beloved

Nomad, you are not wrong to be attracted to what you like. Period.

What's the line between fetishizing and preference? Well, to me fetishes aren't people. You would have to be seeing the person as an object and not a person. For example, if you felt like any transman would do JUST because he is trans...that's a fetish to me. If you didn't care about him as a person. To me a preference is being very attracted to a certain kind of person, but taking each person on an individual basis, and finding out if you would be a good match, if you enjoy each others company, getting to know the person behind the attributes you are attracted to.

i agree that taking each person on an individual basis is the only way to live. period. i feel uncomfortable slicing out a group of people from my life in a general way. i dont think i'm doing that at all. i think it's just the way i'm wired to be attracted to some people and not to others. but if i were someone who was only attracted to tall people or thin people (like aishah mentioned) would it be different?

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. But I think you need to tell those women to "suck it." You are allowed to be attracted to whatever you like. It's really none of their business. They sound insecure in their own identity.

i sorta felt that way too but i didnt have the energy or the gumption to say so. i felt really attacked and defeated and then i was mad at myself later for not saying exactly that and standing up to them like a grown ass adult. now i'm madder at myself than i am at them!

Originally Posted by aishah

nomad...i've found some lesbians can be somewhat trans*phobic and/or not accepting of trans*men. perhaps their anger could be coming from that place...?

there is also an issue (which came up in this thread) of people being concerned about those who only date trans*men as seeing them as something less than men, or invalidating their masculinity. like the idea that trans*men are somehow not men or more sensitive than cismen or whatever i think is where a huge part of this objection comes from...i mean, i know trans*guys who don't identify as queer at all, they identify as straight men, period, end of story, so does that really make their masculinity queer? if they do not define it that way?

this is totally a great point and i really thank you for reminding me of it because i didnt have access to it when i was writing my original post. i was too wrapped up in my own issue to consider this point which i know very well. i'm really sorry i forgot it because in forgetting it i realize that i'm filtering people through my own filters and not theirs. i know transguys who i.d. as straight males and those who i.d. as queer. i know folks who dont care if people know they've transitioned and others that do. so i'm guilty here of assuming 'queer' is a part of transgendered i.d. when it isn't necessarily so. thank you for the very gentle and kind reminder. i know that i struggle to think outside my own skin and i can be really ignorant and/or selfish sometimes. i think that i'm just always so damn happy that people transition that i want the whole world to know like it's a damn celebration or something when it's not even my life to celebrate! i dont get the transphobia issue but maybe i dont get any 'phobia' issue when it comes to people because what is there to be afraid of? authenticity? my brain is only wired for assholaphobia i guess. except when i am one that is. i hate being afraid of myself!

there are other trans*men who may only be attracted to femmes or who still identify as queer/on the butch/femme spectrum.

i think that's a really sticky subject and it probably depends on the person as to whether or not that's an issue. generally speaking the issue of preference can be really touchy. i mean...i think it depends on where someone's preferences come from. some preferences are just preferences. some preferences are shaped by norms that can be really oppressive and problematic. (such as the preference for thinness, able-bodiedness, race, etc.) sometimes it's just about chemistry or attraction and it's not something anyone can control.

see this is where i feel like i fit. it's not a 'preference' or a conscious choice. it's just what sparks chemistry in me. a friend of mine describes herself as a 'chubby chaser' and i dont know what to think of that. is it just what floats her boat or is she objectifying people? is it wrong to be attracted to someone who isnt thin? G*d knows there's enough pro-thin propaganda in the world! but when i think of 'chubby chasers' i think of people who are actually kind of weird. is that a double standard on my part? i dont care if the person i'm attracted to is thin or not as long as they're comfortable in their own skin and not in danger healthwise. is that disguised hypocrisy on my part? i dont care about weight but i care about perceived 'masculinity' and how it's embodied in the person wearing it. i feel like an unintentional jerk but i also know that i honestly take every individual as they come and i just wait for them to find a place in my world however that happens. there's no conscious exclusion going on but does that mean it's not taking place?

[aishah]

it's so complicated...sometimes my head explodes thinking about it too!

for me i just try to be conscious about investigating where certain attractions or preferences come from...and be conscious of when my attractions or preferences are coming from a place of - like - being conditioned by a society where only certain kinds of bodies/minds are valued. or being conditioned by certain stereotypes about different kinds of people. sometimes i just like what/who i like. sometimes i find that i'm subconsciously or not so subconsciously letting a prejudice or fear affect how i feel in a situation. i just try to keep an open mind and be really honest with myself about where feelings/attractions are coming from.