The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[Jett]

Going back and reading my post I see some defensiveness, and I think about why there's even a need for it here, but it's here, so why... I think for myself the problem with what we're talking about here is it like bull said, it's especially noticeable in B-F communities (online) and it makes it feel even more personal.

First I'll say, I don't think, (as I said previously) that the greater butch femme community is sexist or misogynistic, but I do though see a lot of stuff slide. And truth, I hear that same complaint from many sides about transphobic remarks, sexist, misogynistic, anti-feminist, homophobic etc.

I think there's an overall phenomenon going on here (more than just being a cross section of humanity) and I don't think it's purposeful... (except where it is).

Seems there's so much in-fighting, covert and open between identities, and allies, that we're stuck defending ourselves against each other and as a result of feeling dissed by X, or not defended... maybe we tend not to defend X.

I started this thread for Female ID, Women ID Butches (and that's what it's going to be about) but that doesn't mean I don't hear the similar cries of foul from other identities just that this is my personal fight.

And, I still feel it's lop-sided, I still feel sexism and misogyny less called out and that feels personal, but perhaps standing along side each other (because despite the in-fighting I still see us as brothers and sisters) we'd get further, learn more about each other and just be a better ally all around. You can't fight anothers battle for them, but you can support them.

Truly we are different, and thus have different individual battles, but as queer masculine beings who were not born male we share a lot of the same grief from the greater world, and so by default the war.

I wanted to throw that out there though I want this thread to remain female ID and Women ID focused... but I believe it's an important consideration.

My half a cup of coffee to yours,
Metro

[Jett]

One thing I'd like to see talked about, and I think it's a huge problem... is the equating of Female ID and Women ID to soft or less masculine.

Frankly, honestly... truly...

... it's just plain sexist (and perhaps misogynistic where it's not being ignorant).

Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

[Luckydwg07]

"convey level of butchiness"
This is true to me....
Its a reason why I spend more time with my gay friends (men) and queens because we talk, joke & support each other's choices in life.
Its wonderful that we have this avenue to discuss but at the end of the day in my world I don't find any kinship with the butches I know but for 1
I find more freindship here online ...hell maybe its because I've been flying solo for so long? I'm a very appraochable person
I feel a competative nature everytime I am in a group of butchess its not fun it's more of a test! I careless what people think I'm made of and in the same breath wish for more understanding.

Thankyou for this thread

Originally Posted by Metropolis

One thing I'd like to see talked about, and I think it's a huge problem... is the equating of Female ID and Women ID to soft or less masculine.

Frankly, honestly... truly...

... it's just plain sexist (and perhaps misogynistic where it's not being ignorant).

Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

[Kobi]

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

[Cyclopea]

Proud Butch Woman here. Represent!
Enjoying the thread- thanks to all who have posted.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Hey Kobi (and a hey to Luckdwg07 ) *

I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.. but I'm slightly perplexed with that statement... especially in a Butch Femme forum?

Thanx in advance for any explanation...

Metro

*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===>
*s*
.
.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===>
*s*
.
.

I thought this was a video game controller, lol. But toasters are good too- thanks Met!

[Kobi]

"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities."

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

Ok, I understand, but will say I don't find that disconcerting at all... some peeps just need to be themselves, and if they aren't female then the simply aren't female.

I don't think that should be disconcerting to someone it doesn't really have two hoots to do with anyhow, but it's your prerogative, I just don't agree.

There's room for all of us.

Metro

[Luckydwg07]

I guess you could say I'm disconcerting to others in our community. I am strong & masculine in my womanly frame..I am totally butch I've had many descriptions pinned to my chest. I do enjoy the company of all. What they want to be is up to them. When people feel good about who they are one can tell & enjoy knowing them.
Maybe some are not ok with their place in life & so they are upset with me. I can't figure it out. I just stay on the fringe with my door open.
hope I didn't muddy the waters more!!

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Hey Kobi (and a hey to Luckdwg07 ) *

I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.. but I'm slightly perplexed with that statement... especially in a Butch Femme forum?

Thanx in advance for any explanation...

Metro

*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===>
*s*
.
.

[Allison W]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Originally Posted by Kobi

"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities."

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

This compelled me to de-lurk. I have to ask--when you say that ("lesbians who disown their femaleness"), are you talking about male-ID'd butches, transmen, or something else entirely?

~~~

Now that I'm here, though, I'd like to thank Metropolis for starting this thread. Over on the dash site, which I still do visit, I do often find that male ID'd butches and transmen are frequently regarded as the default (a particularly striking example perhaps being the name of the butch bonding forum--Butch Bruthas? No Butch Sistahs?), with butch women frequently thought of afterward, if at all. Which isn't to say I'm against acceptance of male-ID'd butches and transmen, but I don't accept the marginalization of butch women--in the straight world, let alone their own communities. My moral support isn't worth much, but suffice it to say if there's anything I can do to support you in a more useful fashion, I'd be happy to.

[Luckydwg07]

I will say that out in public I feel confident. I do have people stare/examine me but I look at them and give a smile & a hello. 99% of the time I get a hello back. I am part of society & the human race no doubt.

[Words]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Simpler for whom?

For you, perhaps. But not for those who had the audacity to be 'other'.

[Jett]

What feels safe is my lumping myself into a space I kind of can slide by in... what feels less safe is a middle ground between two huge accepted gender designations.

"Other"... no matter where I go there I am facing it including here. Though I keep grasping at those straws, trying to place myself into "one or the other" (binary- woman or man) and once again when I do find myself uncomfortably in a position of just not quite belonging. There's only one place I had that I felt I could breath... and that was in my while back acknowledgment of "The Other Genders".

A couple months ago I'm looking at an old photo of myself (teenage for retroweek) and it triggered a strong desire to find the contentedness in her eyes, and I thought I found it in her being happy in her being "her", BUT totally missed that it's just her being ignorant (and blissful in that ignorance) to the implications of who s/he is/was and what it would mean in the world.

Then I get a bigger damn wake up, I wrote this thread for female or women butches... and hit submit, and the itchiness began. The more I try to speak from that position... the more itchy I get, the more that it's not right feeling rises up and the more I realize to I need to be forthright with myself and here. My body is female yes and will always be and I'm happy with that (though it tends to random masculine traits it's no doubt on the more female on the bits side)... but my mind is quite "other", it is very pangender, or androgyne, male and female by birth or by lived life... what ever it is what it is.

My self acceptance is a process in which denial has played too large a part and needs to be gotten over... I really want to just be who I am and it starts with owning it. I was going to re-write this and post it tomorrow but what the hell...

Metropolis
*still a female but perhaps not in the same sense this thread has and may follow*
-------------------------------------------------
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?

[AtLast]

Other, yes, other. For me, other is the mix of female & male .... a merging and this feels right to me. Yet, it does not feel like what we have traditionally conceived via the gender binary. It is something other and needs no modification. Nuturance, yes, change, no. But, this is the other that fits for me, not everyone. This is how it has always been for me.

I just want to have a respected place in which I am seen for my character, not my gender. And not feel that I have to continually fight for recognition as the female I am. Nor do I want to be a more masculine woman that I am or put on false male bravado to be accepted as butch. This is out of character for me.

What I am is just a butch and happy with this.

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by Jett

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

hi to everyone reading this. I'm responding to something from 2 years ago but I believe it's salient still. Maybe this has been addressed already... the twin-souled or maybe not?
Historically, there have been women who are also like men and the men who are also like women. They are known in Native American tradition as twin spirited or twin-souled and traditionally are the spiritual leaders of the People since they are able to speak for both genders and can often commune with the Creator/Source. This is old Amazonian tradition. There have been Amazon women and transgendered since the dawn of time.
The links I posted did not mention that in 2000 years ago, Lybia was considered an Amazonian land and Lybia was known as Africa. Transgendered and genderqueer have historically been known as Shaman and the spiritual leaders of the People.
So how does a genderqueer (both) male-id or female id cope???? Bio-dudes can at times look at you and ponder, "Do I fuck or fight h/er?" and male ID or female ID can ignore the beautiful synergy that is the twinned-spirited. How does one express his and/or her soul? And how does one focus and find love in the chaos of our world?

[girl_dee]

i'd like to add that i am totally in love with how my butch partner embraces butch, woman and fierce in the world. Some of her town interactions (Firefighting for example) are male dominated and she rises above the cloud of patriarchal BS every time.

Her whole disposition is a hot and confident butch woman swagger.

[adorable]

I like you metro - I am coming to your thread. lol
I have tried to actually play peace maker between the female and male ID's in the past - which was promptly ignored....lol

Because I think it would be fabulous if we really could all get along - I will just throw this out there.

I was trying to explain to a male ID recently, who feels like he is a man inside TG - why female ID'd butches get so upset. What I told him I THINK it is - stems from female ID'd butches fighting their whole lives against a male centric society to be seen and accepted as masculine women. Only to have other people, who may look like them - dismiss that because that is not how they see themselves.

Ya'll have been having these arguments for a while and never seem to come to a resolution. As someone who comes from an outside place with no real leaning to one particular side what I see happen is almost always the same thing....
Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is insanity.

Here is my take:

The female ID's feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns are the default. They see that as evidence of misogyny. They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as masculine WOMEN. Then they question why male IDs need to switch from female pronouns at all. The mistake I think female IDs make is believing that male IDs use male pronouns to seem more butch then female IDs.

The male IDs feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns as the default are questioned. They see that as evidence of people trying to take away their ID (especially on line.) They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as MEN. Then they question why male IDs are trying to be excluded from the site. The mistake male IDs make is believing that female IDs are actually trying to exclude them.

What is so very sad to me is that as Butches regardless of pronoun have very similar real life experiences. The world sees you the same. The struggle is similar but because you come from such very different places the goal is different. How you FEEL inside is different. And because the reasons for what you do, how you dress and who you are are NOT the same - lines are drawn in the sand. Even though the argument always becomes about the power play of the internal female vs male centric society - I don't believe at all that is what is truly being played out in threads.

Yes, people do default to male pronouns. Misogyny is the "hatred" of women. I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred. Yet, it's a loaded word that is thrown around alot. In my opinion, it is abused online and used to settle scores.

Coming from a female centered place, male pronouns set off red flags. Coming from a male centered place, they make them feel included.

It's frustrating to watch the "collective" you attempt to argue endlessly about things when the two sides involved are having completely seperate converstations.

Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.

[BullDog]

As a butch woman who can be rather outspoken at times, hearing that we masculine types are involved in some sort of turf war or jockeying for position really does irritate me. It makes me feel that when I speak up I am really not being listened to or taken seriously. I feel it's being viewed as a petty squabble. Calm down kids and play nicely.

Speaking from my own point of view, individual's personal pronoun preferences, gender identities, or decisions to transition does not impact me personally one whit. I fully support everyone to make the best choices for themselves.

I also don't think there is limited turf- like we are on an island where only 99 masculine type people can fit and I need to shove a transman off into the ocean or throw a male id'd butch under a bus in order to grab my space on the isle of BeeEffdom or QueerDom. I don't belong to a certain gang that wears a specific color bandana duking it out against the other dudes. You know it sounds like West Side Story or something.

Butch women are told to claim space and speak up and then when they attempt to do so are told to stop fighting.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male identified people. when male pronouns are uses as the default and seen as a form of respect for butches, and when it doubt use them so as to be sure not to offend anyone who hates being called she or a woman, that's sexist. People are very quick to point out they are not women or not lesbian. What people don't seem to be so quick about is honoring the female and woman part of butch- which is part of what many butches are and live every day. Butch woman are also many times seen as a small sliver of butch, a subset- when I don't believe that is the case at all out in the real world.

People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.

When I speak out, when I see other butch women speak out, from my perspective we are claiming space (not turf)- space that is rightfully ours. We are using our voices, we are letting everyone know hey we are still here. We're here, we're queer, we're lesbian and queer masculine females and women- we are proud to be Butch and proud to be Female and proud to be Women- and it's really sexist to squelch that part of Butch. We are not going away. We are the heart and soul of butch and live as visibly queer and lesbian masculine females every day of our lives. Damn right we aren't going to go quietly into the night. That has nothing to do with a turf war or shoving anyone under the bus to me.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by BullDog

As a butch woman who can be rather outspoken at times, hearing that we masculine types are involved in some sort of turf war or jockeying for position really does irritate me. It makes me feel that when I speak up I am really not being listened to or taken seriously. I feel it's being viewed as a petty squabble. Calm down kids and play nicely.

Speaking from my own point of view, individual's personal pronoun preferences, gender identities, or decisions to transition does not impact me personally one whit. I fully support everyone to make the best choices for themselves.

I also don't think there is limited turf- like we are on an island where only 99 masculine type people can fit and I need to shove a transman off into the ocean or throw a male id'd butch under a bus in order to grab my space on the isle of BeeEffdom or QueerDom. I don't belong to a certain gang that wears a specific color bandana duking it out against the other dudes. You know it sounds like West Side Story or something.

Butch women are told to claim space and speak up and then when they attempt to do so are told to stop fighting.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male identified people. when male pronouns are uses as the default and seen as a form of respect for butches, and when it doubt use them so as to be sure not to offend anyone who hates being called she or a woman, that's sexist. People are very quick to point out they are not women or not lesbian. What people don't seem to be so quick about is honoring the female and woman part of butch- which is part of what many butches are and live every day. Butch woman are also many times seen as a small sliver of butch, a subset- when I don't believe that is the case at all out in the real world.

People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.

When I speak out, when I see other butch women speak out, from my perspective we are claiming space (not turf)- space that is rightfully ours. We are using our voices, we are letting everyone know hey we are still here. We're here, we're queer, we're lesbian and queer masculine females and women- we are proud to be Butch and proud to be Female and proud to be Women- and it's really sexist to squelch that part of Butch. We are not going away. We are the heart and soul of butch and live as visibly queer and lesbian masculine females every day of our lives. Damn right we aren't going to go quietly into the night. That has nothing to do with a turf war or shoving anyone under the bus to me.

So then what is there to argue about? Yet it happens over and over and over and over......
It apparently is MORE then a petty squabble but based on everything you said here what exactly is the "more important" fight? Is it the part I highlighted? Why does someone need to make sexism go away to feel comfortable in their skin? And why does there need to be a loftier goal of breaking down gender stereotypes when that is how people feel INSIDE?
On one hand you say: it doesn't matter to me one whit
On the other you seem to be saying something else entirely.

The second part I highlighted I hope that means for you personally because I think that everyone needs to live their own truth. Speaking up for YOURSELF makes sense to me. Speaking out against others because they are different seems rather unfair.