Help me write this - discussion of gender dynamics in lesbian community

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

There is a fairly large local lesbian "meetup" group that seems to be mostly what I refer to as "generic" lesbians - women who are somewhere in the middle in terms of their gender presentation, who tend towards androgynous/butch and are attracted to those who are more like themselves instead of being attracted to their opposites. This group includes a few women who I know are butch-phobic (though they look somewhat butch themselves) or who are vocal about that the just don't get why "someone wants to act like a man, or wants a woman who acts like a man."

This group regularly have topic discussion meetups and I'd like to plan one around the discussion of gender dynamics in the lesbian community, including the roots of the anti-butch sentiment (especially among the "sporty lesbian" community), and.... what else? How could I describe this in a way that makes it clear that it's not just for butch/femme women, and that it's to discuss and not defend (or trash) those on the butch/femme edges of the gender spectrum?

I'm terrible at writing things like this because I always use 500 words when 50 are needed. Anyone able to help?

And yes, while part of why I'd do this is to open up this discussion and make it ok to self-identify as butch or femme within this community, another part is that I hope that other butches and femmes will attend!

I'm not sure how your discussion groups work but maybe something along the lines of "your journey to you?" So people can talk about their feelings and what worked for them getting to their own place. That might help open the lines of dialogue rather than create an us vs them scenario???

Just one thought I had.



Good Luck,
julie

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by femmsational

I'm not sure how your discussion groups work but maybe something along the lines of "your journey to you?" So people can talk about their feelings and what worked for them getting to their own place. That might help open the lines of dialogue rather than create an us vs them scenario???

Just one thought I had.



Good Luck,
julie

I like this approach. Too often this topic degenerates into a bashing of lesbians that are not into butch-femme and that always irritates the shit out of me.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

Too often this topic degenerates into a bashing of lesbians that are not into butch-femme and that always irritates the shit out of me.

I stand by my original comment.

We are all different. Some of us are into butch-femme, some are not. Some of us date trans, some of us do not.

I do not care if other lesbians do not like, do not approve or are not into the BF dynamic. It does not affect me one iota.

I do my own thing. I accept wherever my lesbian sisters are, whomever they are attracted to-regardless.

Anything else feels divisive to me.

I will not support divisiveness in any form, for any LGBTQ. There are too few of us in this world to do that.

I am not superior than anyone just because the butch-femme dynamic turns me on and is what does it for me.

We really can't control who or what we are sexually attracted to. It is an extremely complex dynamic that is interwoven into the very fabric of our being.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I stand by my original comment.

We are all different. Some of us are into butch-femme, some are not. Some of us date trans, some of us do not.

I do not care if other lesbians do not like, do not approve or are not into the BF dynamic. It does not affect me one iota.

I do my own thing. I accept wherever my lesbian sisters are, whomever they are attracted to-regardless.

Anything else feels divisive to me.

I will not support divisiveness in any form, for any LGBTQ. There are too few of us in this world to do that.

I am not superior than anyone just because the butch-femme dynamic turns me on and is what does it for me.

We really can't control who or what we are sexually attracted to. It is an extremely complex dynamic that is interwoven into the very fabric of our being.

I agree with your ideas on divisiveness and the complexity of attraction. I hope my post didn't come across as an attack.

As for that long ago ex: I did feel rather attacked by her attempt to change the core of who I am when she was well aware of my presentation prior to getting together with me. I wish she hadn't tried to change me. It was rather confusing me as a newly out queer, and I actually did compromise who I was to a certain degree in order to mould myself into some version of what she needed attraction-wise.

This is all before I discovered B/F and the affirmation that I was just fine carrying on the way I was and that others understood the ways I move through the world.

One more thing I just remembered. I recall a conversation with a friend (lesbian) where I did have to try to explain myself. She was a bit miffed I think, at first, about the B/F dynamic and my relationships. After a chat or two, it was fine and I think she was truly interested and *got* it more. I do think there are ways to have these conversations with the wider queer/lesbian community, and I gotta give some props to Dance as I don't know if I could start or lead a conversation about gender dynamics or B/F stuff with a larger group.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Soon

One more thing I just remembered. I recall a conversation with a friend (lesbian) where I did have to try to explain myself. She was a bit miffed I think, at first, about the B/F dynamic and my relationships. After a chat or two, it was fine and I think she was truly interested and *got* it more. I do think there are ways to have these conversations with the wider queer/lesbian community, and I gotta give some props to Dance as I don't know if I could start or lead a conversation about gender dynamics it with a larger group.

I agree with the props for Dance. Also, I think it is pretty cool that she admits that it is mostly a self serving thing...she is seeking friends in an otherwise androgynous community...rather than it being all about education.

I don't live in the area she lives in, but I know it well. She will be walking into a room of lesbians who will number one not be so keen on her gender presentation, and number two are almost proud of their discrimination towards butches and femmes who date butches. I think she is right that there are probably "closeted" butch defined people in that group since being butch is almost a shameful thing in that community, especially in her age group.

Dance-With-Me, you may want to consider finding butch/femme/trans people by advertising for a butch/femme/trans group, if that is your main purpose in bringing up this topic.

[Dance-with-me]

I can't fathom why inviting dialog on something would be inherently divisive, and I can't find in anything I've written about my supporting anyone trying to change anything about anyone (other than to provide an opportunity to open a few minds) but I think we're just not getting each other and it's fine to just let it go at that.

[Dude]

maybe just run an ad on craigslist
for platonic friends (butch and femme)?

I have thought of doing so
as I have a huge void where my best friend
of 28 years passed away a few years ago.
but she was a tweener (andro, whatevah)
who not only understood me and all my quirks
but knew exactly what my type was / is,
was always supportive and never questioned it or me.
The best friend evah!
So, I'm not sure I would even put the butch or
femme part in there in terms of friendships.
things that make you go hmmm

[Femminator]

Maybe starting off the presentation with signs, with words on them like Butch, Femme, Androgenous, Stone, Transgendered, etc. Ask the people present to write down what each of these words means to them, ask them what stereotypes they associate with these words. Now, you address each of the stereotypes of those words. Maybe even pics of people who embody the gender lables you present. For butch there are many people you could choose from, KD Lang, Rachael Maddow, even Ellen, the trick is to make sure that you get several different looking types of butches so they get that there is not only one type of butch. If you get this for each label, people will see that their narrow views of a word is not correct. It may not change minds, but it definately will spark some conversation.

Good luck.

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by femmsational

I'm not sure how your discussion groups work but maybe something along the lines of "your journey to you?" So people can talk about their feelings and what worked for them getting to their own place. That might help open the lines of dialogue rather than create an us vs them scenario???

Just one thought I had.



Good Luck,
julie

I'm with femmsational on this one... getting people to think of their own journey/presentation as unique and worthwhile and then being open to others experiences is a useful tool for perspective taking.

In my own journey to femme and then the butch/femme dynamic in a relationship I had a few stops with other people. Each person had their own presentation/way of being. Just as I would expect individuals to have because they are individuals. Some of the underlying tension in our relationships was related to my at times unnamed desire for a dynamic that: neither of us knew about, one didn't like and was outspoken or even the other persons desire to make the other be more like something they weren't.

At times the language and views/judgements of our community (queer and straight) helped shape how we (the 2 people in the relationship) proceeded or tried to function with our feelings (how we saw ourselves, what we couldn't name). So I can understand the need to talk about this.

I often wonder without creating a platform/meeting/dissertation how to get out to folks as an open minded person. Sometimes the urge strikes me to raise my hand, wave it a bit and give a general reminder... Hay folks if you want an open discussion about something tweaking you hit me up. Struggling with judgements of yourself and others? Lets chat.

Asking questions is the best small way I have come up with when with people in passing or in the moment. Why they feel that way, what got them to that point, why not another point of view... etc.