Help me write this - discussion of gender dynamics in lesbian community

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Butch-femme dynamics, masculine-feminine dynamics are much different from woman-woman dynamics.

I disagree with that since many, if not most, butches are women and experience themselves as women.

I think the OP is asking for help in trying to explain butch and femme as genders, not necessarily our dynamic. I could be wrong.

There are a lot of queer folk who get squicked by us. It's useful to educate them if you are interested in that.

I think she's asking a hard question. It's hard to go back to square one and say butch is this or that, especially when we know it isn't always.

I guess I would start with the concepts of masculinity and femininity and talk about how they don't belong to any gender.

Good luck. (glad it's not me)

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Martina

I guess I would start with the concepts of masculinity and femininity and talk about how they don't belong to any gender.

Good luck. (glad it's not me)

You gave me a Ooooooo, I like that. Martina. Nicely said. I agree.

[Dance-with-me]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think the OP is asking for help in trying to explain butch and femme as genders, not necessarily our dynamic. I could be wrong.

There are a lot of queer folk who get squicked by us. It's useful to educate them if you are interested in that.

I think she's asking a hard question. It's hard to go back to square one and say butch is this or that, especially when we know it isn't always.

I guess I would start with the concepts of masculinity and femininity and talk about how they don't belong to any gender.

Good luck. (glad it's not me)

Thank you. Probably more as gender presentations or gender expressions than genders, but you are correct - no intention of trying to "explain" the butch/femme dynamic in any depth at all.

There ARE a lot of queer folk who get squicked by us, and this IS about educating them - or at least opening up a dialog with them, and giving everyone more to think about.

No intention of making any kind of definitive "butch is..." statements - because, as you said, there is no definitive way of describing it.

I love the suggestion of saying that masculinity and femininity don't belong to any gender. I also thought about using my granddaughter, who has rejected all "girl" stuff since she was 2 and plans to marry a very girly-girl friend of hers, and her good friend who is a "princess boy" with a very feminine gender presentation who has a crush on one of the rough and tumble boys in his class, as a starting point: They're not playing roles, they're not playing a game, they just don't get why it's somehow wrong for a girl to prefer spiderman and trucks and identify far more with the boys, or for a boy to prefer sparkles and princesses and identify far more with the girls -- because it's NOT wrong, society is wrong for putting them in a box and saying girls can only like this and boys can only like that. My granddaughter and her friend are probably not transsexual but their gender presentation doesn't match the stereotypes of what they "should" be -- and there's nothing wrong with that. AND when they grow up, my granddaughter quite possibly will be a butch, with a masculine gender presentation just like she already has now (in 6 yo form) and she may have a strong preference and feel most a home with a girl who has a very feminine gender presentation.

OK end ramble. But that's some of where my head is with this.

I appreciate your input.