Help me write this - discussion of gender dynamics in lesbian community

[aishah]

kobi, i really appreciated your response, esp what you said about not assuming someone's gender id and the issues with the term "generic lesbian" (which makes me cringe too). i got the impression that you are positing woman and butch/masculine (or even femme) as something separate though. i'm wondering how butches who very much identify as women fit into that - at least with what you said about "butch-femme dynamics, masculine-feminine dynamics are much different from woman-woman dynamics."

[MissItalianDiva]

Hmm...I thought I understood your general point but after reading your post again I just am sitting here wondering WTH to be honest.

Perhaps this group your are a member or participant in just simply does not want or need to identify with being butch or femme. Why do they have to be "generic" lesbians or even lesbians for that matter. Perhaps they choose to date others that are "andro" etc as you put it because that is where their attraction is and of course their choice.

I don't get why it bothers you that they are different. My suggestion would be to
1. Not box folks into categories
2. Don't make assumptions
3. Realize not everyone is going to or will want to have the same view of you even if you have a discussion with them
4. Open you mind and your world.

I am sorry but your post and words seem rather hypocritical to me or at the very least contradictory. I tried to read in between the lines but I can't seem to find any other way to perceive this other then it being offensive.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by aishah

kobi, i really appreciated your response, esp what you said about not assuming someone's gender id and the issues with the term "generic lesbian" (which makes me cringe too). i got the impression that you are positing woman and butch/masculine (or even femme) as something separate though. i'm wondering how butches who very much identify as women fit into that - at least with what you said about "butch-femme dynamics, masculine-feminine dynamics are much different from woman-woman dynamics."

What I was addressing is that under the queer umbrella there are many branches with some similarities but also with distinct differences. Finding ones way through the branches to the place where one finds the sense of community that speaks to them is very much an individual thing.

What I was also addressing is that woman-woman, minus the labels and qualifiers we are used to in this community, is a very real, very valid, choice of lifestyle which deserves as much respect and acceptance as any other branch under the umbrella.

The queer community is a diverse community. The word diverse indicates differences. If there werent differences, would we use the word diversity?

[Fatale]

Originally Posted by Kobi

The queer community is a diverse community. The word diverse indicates differences. If there werent differences, would we use the word diversity?

No, we would use the word "boring".

[Dance-with-me]

OK, I'm going to try and back up and take this in.

First, I apologize for offense taken by the use of the term "generics lesbians." It's a term that a friend of mine and I banter about to describe most of the lesbian community where I live, which consists of women who are largely in the middle in terms of their gender expression and presentation, and who also too well known for being very much against anyone calling themselves butch or femme. The area where I live does not have a generally diverse community -- if you go to any lesbian event, both the women who live locally and the women who attend from out of town will be overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly "fit", overwhelmingly economically privileged, and will also overwhelmingly have short hair and perhaps slightly masculine "sporty" clothing but very frequently with earrings and a touch of makeup and a girlfriend who can be described in exactly the same way. This is not an exaggeration, as others here who have visited this area can verify. If anyone can suggest a non-offensive term to use, I would much appreciate it.

My thoughts on doing this discussion was to start a dialog about gender dynamics and gender presentation within our community, in hopes of at least indirectly addressing the overwhelming amount of anti-butch/femme sentiment in this community -- in particular, the openly anti-butch sentiment that pervades this community, that crosses over into anti-femme sentiments as well, since I've been told many variations on "why do you want a woman who is trying to pretend she's a guy?" or "I don't get why you're into playing roles like that" by folks who will accept (but clearly not get) someone with a strikingly feminine/femme gender presentation (especially if she's with another "lipstick lesbian", but are openly puzzled by or even hostile towards a butch with a clearly masculine gender presentation, or a butch/femme couple who are clearly enjoying that specific dynamic between them.

I am open to all suggestions.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

OK, I'm going to try and back up and take this in.

First, I apologize for offense taken by the use of the term "generics lesbians." It's a term that a friend of mine and I banter about to describe most of the lesbian community where I live, which consists of women who are largely in the middle in terms of their gender expression and presentation, and who also too well known for being very much against anyone calling themselves butch or femme. The area where I live does not have a generally diverse community -- if you go to any lesbian event, both the women who live locally and the women who attend from out of town will be overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly "fit", overwhelmingly economically privileged, and will also overwhelmingly have short hair and perhaps slightly masculine "sporty" clothing but very frequently with earrings and a touch of makeup and a girlfriend who can be described in exactly the same way. This is not an exaggeration, as others here who have visited this area can verify. If anyone can suggest a non-offensive term to use, I would much appreciate it.

My thoughts on doing this discussion was to start a dialog about gender dynamics and gender presentation within our community, in hopes of at least indirectly addressing the overwhelming amount of anti-butch/femme sentiment in this community -- in particular, the openly anti-butch sentiment that pervades this community, that crosses over into anti-femme sentiments as well, since I've been told many variations on "why do you want a woman who is trying to pretend she's a guy?" or "I don't get why you're into playing roles like that" by folks who will accept (but clearly not get) someone with a strikingly feminine/femme gender presentation (especially if she's with another "lipstick lesbian", but are openly puzzled by or even hostile towards a butch with a clearly masculine gender presentation, or a butch/femme couple who are clearly enjoying that specific dynamic between them.

I am open to all suggestions.

Unless a person has an investment in understanding something, they are not going to be open to it. I don't know the purpose of the meetup group, but if you can find a way to speak to what may create an interest for them in this topic, you will be off to a good start. Good luck. You definitely have a tough crowd in that specific community.

[Dance-with-me]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Unless a person has an investment in understanding something, they are not going to be open to it. I don't know the purpose of the meetup group, but if you can find a way to speak to what may create an interest for them in this topic, you will be off to a good start. Good luck. You definitely have a tough crowd in that specific community.

Oh I definitely know that a closed mind is not going to be opened. The topics of their discussion gatherings are publicized in advance, so I'm hoping that anyone who attended would come with an open mind. I planned to ask a B/F couple I know to go with me, if for no other reason than to have a butch present for the discussion. I also would hope that it would be a safe space for others in the group who identify as butch or femme to talk about that - because it really is not a community that otherwise supports it, and I imagine there may be some who ID as butch or femme who have been reluctant to come out.

[BrutalDaddy]

The area I live in isn't too bad, meaning there's a few butches here and there but for most part, straight and lgbtq folks just smile at 'sational and I then go about their business.

Now on the other side of the bay from where we live is a different story. Lol. I still remember when 'sational first came to see me, we went to a local gay bar I hadn't been in and someone had told me we should try it out. Okay, cool. Some place where we can talk and hang out, play pool, and not worry about people giving us sideway looks. Oh how wrong I was. I swear we got nastier dirty looks from the lesbians in that bar then we ever get from straight people! Seriously, it was making us a lil uncomfortable. Lol.

So I can understand kinda where you're coming from, Dance. I hope you're able to figure out how you want to approach it and that you find others who are willing to expand their own minds and views. Good luck.


Grinning At The Haters (in that bar),
Brute.

[Corkey]

As each person is different, we are all individuals living in a society that doesn't respect our personal presentations. Just as there is no single way to describe Butch or Femme, the clothes do not make the ID. It never has and it never will.
We are human beings , each with a path that is different than any other human. I agree with discussing in the *I* and not generalizing.