What attracts you to Ftms ......

[Martina]

I would like to repeat that I said, and maintain, that I do not care what people do in their own homes and relationships. I do not think that people's individual choices are wrong. I do think that holding up a patriarchal family model as an example of how people ought to live is beyond wrong. Unbelievably wrong. And it's a fight long since over in the culture at large. If membership in my subculture requires that I give up the gains made for civil rights in the larger culture, then . . . I vote for human rights.

That said, I do not think that anyone is living in a way that deprives them of their human rights. But if someone -- like the couple in the past -- were to endorse that again, recommend it, hold it up as an example, then to not call it out is wrong. I repeat the word -- "wrong."

[Leigh]

For me it'll always be their energy and just how they are themselves no matter what anyone else says or thinks

[BullDog]

I agree with you 100% Martina.

I also never made any judgements whatsoever on anyone's personal relationships or desires. I haven't seen anyone doing that at all.

What do I like about FTMS- I like and admire FTMS that are comfortable in their skin and those that are feminists and understand and fight for women as equals.

Originally Posted by Martina

I would like to repeat that I said, and maintain, that I do not care what people do in their own homes and relationships. I do not think that people's individual choices are wrong. I do think that holding up a patriarchal family model as an example of how people ought to live is beyond wrong. Unbelievably wrong. And it's a fight long since over in the culture at large. If membership in my subculture requires that I give up the gains made for civil rights in the larger culture, then . . . I vote for human rights.

That said, I do not think that anyone is living in a way that deprives them of their human rights. But if someone -- like the couple in the past -- were to endorse that again, recommend it, hold it up as an example, then to not call it out is wrong. I repeat the word -- "wrong."

[Bèsame*]

Not really quite sure what it is, but I'm liking the attraction so far...I'm still learning

[Medusa]

Ok, Snowy just made me have a lightbulb moment.

So, I called Snowy and said, "What am I missing here? How is this not about desire?"

The answer is that it IS about desire until it's not.

I read back a little further in this thread and see something here that happens a lot on the Planet (and it online spaces in general).

When we start out talking about desire (and this thread in it's baby-state IS about desire "What attracts you..."), we often fall into this pattern of talking about markers.

Markers like what makes a Femme or a Butch or a Transperson attractive to us.

"...holding doors", "...pulling out chairs", "...driving the flirtation"

Those markers, and the conversation around them, often ends up being a grunt-fest of who can out-Femme, out-Butch, or out-Trans the next person. Because let's face it, there are a lot of single folks up in these threads talking about their desires. It plays out like a dating thread sometimes.

When we do that, I think some of us start holding up those (unexamined) markers as what I like to call "the apex of dick mountain". It's very Patriarchal.

It's the kind of stuff that implies that Femmes don't hold doors open for their partners or that "true" or "real" or "old school" Butches do x, y, z.
That stuff needs to be examined. Thoughtfully and dynamically.

I think it's ok to say and want "the person I'm interested in to hold a door open for me". Where we get into that unexamined area is when we lock up on "Transmen hold doors open".
Because people are not absolutes.
Neither are genders.
And certainly not desires.

The lightbulb moment for me is that all of this might be rooted in desire but that when it bumps up against the cadre of -ims, it is no longer about desire but about that ingrained crap we've been fed as women and men.
That may not change what we want from the people we desire but we damn well better understand why.

I have more but am still processing.

Thanks for letting me blather.

[femmsational]

I get that Medusa and feel the same way.

But....I always have a but.....How do those of us who happen to fall into this category, who ARE aware of the isms that are plopped onto our way of being...talk about what floats our boat, without offending.

Cause I really did try to speak from my me voice about how and why this type of kink(gah hate using that word for this) works in my life with my guy. Yet people still seemed to think I was White-washing.

I'm stuck. I know in my head I'm not white-washing but if my words are giving that impression, I don't know what to do?


I really do like to interact with people who fit into "my type" but I agree, sometimes the language and thoughts that are used get really sloppy and offensive. Should we have a discussion about proper language in this instance??


just mulling and trying to find a way to be me, without offending you....general you...

julie

[Parker]

Hey Julie ~

When I read threads like this, I feel like it is the difference between saying something like "I like when FTMs (or w/e) do this, that, or the other" vs. "I like or am attracted to an FTM who does this, that, or the other."

To me, when I am reading it, the first one implies that all FTMs (again, or w/e) do this, that, or the other, while the second one states one's specific desires.


eta: I wanted to come back and make it clear that I was thinking about your questions about language yesterday / this morning and was just using your post(s) as a jumping off point.

[Guy]

This is the Trans Zone.

I wouldn't expect to read post about Lesbians in the Trans threads, just as I wouldn't expect to go into the the lesbian Zone and read about Trans or FtM's

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by femmsational

I get that Medusa and feel the same way.

But....I always have a but.....How do those of us who happen to fall into this category, who ARE aware of the isms that are plopped onto our way of being...talk about what floats our boat, without offending.

Cause I really did try to speak from my me voice about how and why this type of kink(gah hate using that word for this) works in my life with my guy. Yet people still seemed to think I was White-washing.

I'm stuck. I know in my head I'm not white-washing but if my words are giving that impression, I don't know what to do?


I really do like to interact with people who fit into "my type" but I agree, sometimes the language and thoughts that are used get really sloppy and offensive. Should we have a discussion about proper language in this instance??


just mulling and trying to find a way to be me, without offending you....general you...

julie

julie!

I appreciate you!

I am trying to think about how my real-time interactions have gone down when this type of conversation comes up.

Like, I look at Snowy and Grant and can see such an affection there. Such love for one another. And, like, I could imagine them all cozy in their home and Grant doing what Grant does and Snowy doing what she does. The idealism I have about Snowy and Grant is that they have a very thoughtful relationship so if Snowy busted up in here one day and said something like, "I'm getting all June Clever today and wearing my apron and heels" it might be about role-playing, sexytime, etc. for her.
If Grant came up behind her and posted something like, "Lookit my little woman in the kitchen where she belongs!"...well, first I would probably bust out laughing at the adorableness of it all and then I would be absolutely comfortable knowing that Grant is playing with Snowy in a way that is true and comfortable for them.
Consensual.

I think a lot of this is coming down to consent for me. Like, I think you and Brutal get to consent to any kind of dynamic you want with one another and I celebrate the fact that you both have found each other in a way that feels fufilling and right.

I think I am orbiting around how it can feel nonconsensual and disempowering when people say things that feel like "Femmes belong in the kitchen" or "Im in the kitchen because its my place" or "Transmen know how to open doors".

Those are, of course, super black and white examples but I think about how Jack and I have the kind of dynamic that means I do all of the cooking and she does all of the yard stuff and vehicle maintenane. That isn't because we subcribe to the patriarchal bullcrap, but more about what we enjoy as human beings. Maybe I like to cook because I was brought up seeing women valued more if they could roll out a good bundt cake. Maybe Jack likes to do the yard because she saw thought as a child that it was feminizing to have to cook and thus, did what she thought her Daddy would have done (fix the yard and cars).
Those are the kinds of things we've had to examine because again, those markers we are given as children (or that we accept as children) come from jacked up idealism.
Doesn't mean I'm going to quit enjoying cooking because it might be seen as a patriarchal design, just means that I have awareness that I might have made different choices about what I enjoy had I been given a different playing field as a child. (and edited to add that I wanted to be clear I am not at all implying this is what I think of you or that you havent thought about anything, just talking about me!)

I so wholeheartedly agree with you about sloppy language here. I see that happening a lot with people who mean no harm but who may not have thought about where it all comes from. We're all in different places and at different levels of evolution around our stuff so I can accept that we'll have those moments as long as we're all open to learning from them.

I think when you say "It makes me feel really good to cook for my guy", there's not a damn thing wrong with that. I think if we caught our community moving toward the idea of "June Clever is who my Femme needs to be", then we need to be asking ourselves why our Femme isn't fine the way she is. I've had to do a lot of dismantling around that myself after coming out as Femme on the Dash all those years ago and thinking that all Femmes wore glitter, heels, and full makeup when vacuuming the house!! LOL.

I also think that there is a certain level of idealism around the June Clever stuff that can be independant of "the 50s were the best time ever!!". I was telling Snowy that I like to hold up the Huxtables (a family of Color where the wife, Claire, was a powerful attorney and ran her family with dignity and grace) or The Conners from Roseanne (class issues!) and say "Why do we look at the Clevers as the cornerstone of family when we have other examples?".
I think some of it comes down to privilege (or has for me anyway) and also some of it is just flat-out idealism.
I thought the Huxtables were the baddest ass family around when I grew up watching them but they were not as sanitized as the Clever show. The Huxtables dealt with issues like death, teenage pregnancy, drugs, etc. that felt very real to me. I know the Clever show was in a different time but I almost wonder if some of the Ga-Ga around it is escapist (here comes the kink again!).

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Medusa

julie!

I appreciate you!

I am trying to think about how my real-time interactions have gone down when this type of conversation comes up.

Like, I look at Snowy and Grant and can see such an affection there. Such love for one another. And, like, I could imagine them all cozy in their home and Grant doing what Grant does and Snowy doing what she does. The idealism I have about Snowy and Grant is that they have a very thoughtful relationship so if Snowy busted up in here one day and said something like, "I'm getting all June Clever today and wearing my apron and heels" it might be about role-playing, sexytime, etc. for her.
If Grant came up behind her and posted something like, "Lookit my little woman in the kitchen where she belongs!"...well, first I would probably bust out laughing at the adorableness of it all and then I would be absolutely comfortable knowing that Grant is playing with Snowy in a way that is true and comfortable for them.
Consensual.

I think a lot of this is coming down to consent for me. Like, I think you and Brutal get to consent to any kind of dynamic you want with one another and I celebrate the fact that you both have found each other in a way that feels fufilling and right.

I think I am orbiting around how it can feel nonconsensual and disempowering when people say things that feel like "Femmes belong in the kitchen" or "Im in the kitchen because its my place" or "Transmen know how to open doors".

Those are, of course, super black and white examples but I think about how Jack and I have the kind of dynamic that means I do all of the cooking and she does all of the yard stuff and vehicle maintenane. That isn't because we subcribe to the patriarchal bullcrap, but more about what we enjoy as human beings. Maybe I like to cook because I was brought up seeing women valued more if they could roll out a good bundt cake. Maybe Jack likes to do the yard because she saw thought as a child that it was feminizing to have to cook and thus, did what she thought her Daddy would have done (fix the yard and cars).
Those are the kinds of things we've had to examine because again, those markers we are given as children (or that we accept as children) come from jacked up idealism.
Doesn't mean I'm going to quit enjoying cooking because it might be seen as a patriarchal design, just means that I have awareness that I might have made different choices about what I enjoy had I been given a different playing field as a child. (and edited to add that I wanted to be clear I am not at all implying this is what I think of you or that you havent thought about anything, just talking about me!)

I so wholeheartedly agree with you about sloppy language here. I see that happening a lot with people who mean no harm but who may not have thought about where it all comes from. We're all in different places and at different levels of evolution around our stuff so I can accept that we'll have those moments as long as we're all open to learning from them.

I think when you say "It makes me feel really good to cook for my guy", there's not a damn thing wrong with that. I think if we caught our community moving toward the idea of "June Clever is who my Femme needs to be", then we need to be asking ourselves why our Femme isn't fine the way she is. I've had to do a lot of dismantling around that myself after coming out as Femme on the Dash all those years ago and thinking that all Femmes wore glitter, heels, and full makeup when vacuuming the house!! LOL.

I also think that there is a certain level of idealism around the June Clever stuff that can be independant of "the 50s were the best time ever!!". I was telling Snowy that I like to hold up the Huxtables (a family of Color where the wife, Claire, was a powerful attorney and ran her family with dignity and grace) or The Conners from Roseanne (class issues!) and say "Why do we look at the Clevers as the cornerstone of family when we have other examples?".
I think some of it comes down to privilege (or has for me anyway) and also some of it is just flat-out idealism.
I thought the Huxtables were the baddest ass family around when I grew up watching them but they were not as sanitized as the Clever show. The Huxtables dealt with issues like death, teenage pregnancy, drugs, etc. that felt very real to me. I know the Clever show was in a different time but I almost wonder if some of the Ga-Ga around it is escapist (here comes the kink again!).

Yes and some more hell yes. I agree.

I think anytime anyone trys to say that all of anything is the way to go, there is a huge problem. And hearing things like....a femme should be the cooker in the family...always. Or, my butch better change my oil or he's/she's not my butch, or even A butch, is beyond ignorant.


In threads like this, when sentiments such as those above are expressed I feel like clawing my eyes out cause it makes me ashamed that some of what floats my boat, will be lumped into THAT sort of thinking.

I agree with you that perhaps the problem lies in the way things said, AND the way things are called out. When something as silly as all femmes fluff pillows is said, instead of jumping in with the assumtion that EVERYONE who drops their knickers over this sort of "kink" (gah) feels the same way, maybe we can be more careful in the language we choose to call that out.

I think for me, it's the lazyness in thought and language IN GENERAL that tweeks my nose.

I shouldn't generalize when talking about me anymore than those calling something out should generalize about what's being called out.

I mean really??? Who's fucking business is it what individuals do in their own home??? Why does there need to be judgement. Frankly, anybody who can own there own selfs, without trying to beat their ideas into others heads as the only right way to be.....those are the people that drop my knickers.


This is a general plea....can we all try to be more specific and me based when talking about our yummies. PLEASE.


Now off to mull on lazy language.


I appreciate you too. Especially right now cause I'm WAY over excited about the reunion and you make that happen. I'll be over it tomorrow hopefully and will be back to my normally cranky self.

julie


PS....fully admiting that I may have been sloppy and lazy in my language in this post. I have a major headache coming on. If so, I'll re-explain if needed.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by femmsational

I get that Medusa and feel the same way.

But....I always have a but.....How do those of us who happen to fall into this category, who ARE aware of the isms that are plopped onto our way of being...talk about what floats our boat, without offending.

Cause I really did try to speak from my me voice about how and why this type of kink(gah hate using that word for this) works in my life with my guy. Yet people still seemed to think I was White-washing.

I'm stuck. I know in my head I'm not white-washing but if my words are giving that impression, I don't know what to do?


I really do like to interact with people who fit into "my type" but I agree, sometimes the language and thoughts that are used get really sloppy and offensive. Should we have a discussion about proper language in this instance??


just mulling and trying to find a way to be me, without offending you....general you...

julie

I'm not Medusa- obviously! - but I do have a response to this.

From what I saw, I think what got some feathers ruffled is not the lifestyle and dynamic of your relationship, but rather that that type of lifestyle/dynamic was referred to (by others? - frankly I don't remember the phrase you used) as "50's lifestyle" or "good ole days" -- eras which include a lot of really offensive stuff. As I said in an earlier post, I get what you meant, but I think what you're really saying is you live a representational segment of another time (i.e. traditional binary gender roles), not a lifestyle that represents that whole time period. It's easier just to say "the 50's",but that can be a misrepresentation of what you really meant.

I'm not condoning people jumping all over your ass for it, I do think there is a better way to have a discussion, with clearer language.

Edited to add: I don't think anyone has the right to define for anyone else the dynamic of their relationship,or make judgments on it, regardless of how "wrong" they think it is. To each their own. I also agree that blanket statements suck, and ideals and values and descriptions should never be applied across the board to any group, as others have stated, i.e. "a real man does x, a real femme does y."

[Medusa]

Let me make something perfectly clear:

(and Martina, this is not specifically for you but rather a general note because I don't want there to be any doubt about the note I left earlier in this thread)

I am *not* saying that we shouldn't pick apart desire. I think it's healthy to do that and I think it helps us evolve as a community toward something a little less binary and patriarchal to something more "us".

What I am saying is that there is a way to dismantle desire humanely and with sensitivity to the fact that desire and kink often intersect with -isms.

I get very irritated when adults try to tell other adults that finding something sexy or hot within the confines of their private relationships is wrong.
Why? Because I don't think we have the right to do that. And honestly? I don't want another adult who I am not having sex with telling me that my kink is bad or wrong or blah blah blah.

Because who are you at that point? Who are you to think that you know better for me what I want than I do?

Now, and this where I go back to all I said earlier, we all need to be dismantling our desires on a personal level AND on a community level.

I was on the phone with Snowy earlier and we were talking about kink and how the intersections of kink often have overtones of sexism, ageim ,racism, classism, and lots of other.

I am personally uncomfortable with the idea that age play almost exclusively focuses on having a giggling "younger" baby girl or a good "little" boy. Where are the folks asking for a hot older Femme or a "Grandpa"-type Butch? Does that mean that I view all age play as ageist? No.
I think people's desires are dictated internally and that is, quite frankly, none of my damn business. Or yours.
Where it becomes the business of all of us is if a dynamic is continuously being upheld as the "standard for awesome", especially if it is deeply rooted in the very -isms that we don't want replayed over and over on this site.

I do think, however, that when we discuss things like the above it is reasonable to say to one another "Have you ever considered why age play focuses on younger individuals?" without doing that whole "Well, if you were doing it right, you'd be doing x, y, or z."

I felt earlier when reading this thread that we were going down that road of "anyone who participates in this is X, Y, Z-label because OBVIOUSLY they haven't thought about the ramifications for Feminism, sexism, etc."
I don't want that.
I don't want us to be so quick to judge rather than discuss.

I think that some of you brought up some very good points about rewriting history so that sexist notions of what a "wife" looks like are white-washed so that the dirty business of disempowerment doesn't bump up against anyone's kink.
Thing is, I think it's possible that people are willing to take that role out and play with it in their personal lives in a way that makes them feel empowered. That's a win for Feminism, imo.


P.S. I don't do drive-by' in rep messages so if you want to converse with me then you need to use this thread, a private message, Facebook, my phone #, my email, etc.