What attracts you to Ftms ......

[femmsational]

Just curious.......what would be the approved of method for those people who do fit best into what's being describe as the "june cleaver".....role, for lack of a better word.

I ask because this comes up over and over and the arguments are always the same and they always go round and round.

I understand that there is a very clear line when speaking about what works for you as an individual. Do so in your "me" voice and don't step on the backs of others to explain why your way works. That should be obvious enough to any grown person who has interacted with other grown people on a regular basis. I understand that when that, very clear line, is stepped over, it's gonna be brought up, as it should.

Where I get hung up about this, especially on this topic is why then, when we are reminded that our way doesn't work for everyone and we need to be more aware of words, thoughts and actions, do we then go into a history lesson of all the ills perpertrated on others during that era?


And please hear this....I am NOT dismissing the ignorant/non-tolerant/dumbass ways in which most rich white men acted back then.

What I am asking is, can we come up with a way to discuss the needs of some, without having to go into a history lesson and describe all the ways that feeling comfortable as 'june cleaver' is so antiquated, old fashioned....blahblahblah.

I fit this category. It's the me that fires my soul. And I am not old fashioned, weak or antiquated in my thinking. So there must be some way to be okay with both trains of thought. Or at least I would hope, as adults we could figure out a way to be tolerant of everyone that is not me.


Just really wishing for tolerance across the board. Probably another of my many pollyana moments but, such is life.


Take Care,
julie


P.S. What I love about most FTM's is the strength that seems to acrue during the transition. It's a strong person that can spit in the eye of "normal" to become their normal. Makes me all squishy inside.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by femmsational

What I am asking is, can we come up with a way to discuss the needs of some, without having to go into a history lesson and describe all the ways that feeling comfortable as 'june cleaver' is so antiquated, old fashioned....blahblahblah.

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

Some may be, some I know for sure aren't.

How do I talk about what works for us (my other half and I) without upsetting the apple cart.

Serious question. Not trying to cause a snark fest.


And one more thing, there is nothing wrong with wishing there was a little more common decency in this world.


julie

[BullDog]

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by BullDog

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

Oh my god! Really, you think that's what I'm talking about?


I'm not going to get sucked into a discussions of the idiot thoughts, ideas and action that happened "back then" And am not questioning whether they happened.


Would a better example be....people from a small town?? No, cause then I'm dismissing or um...insinuating that city people are rude, crude and socially undesierable.


This is my point. Common decency, when talking about behavior, is not a political thing to me. It's, holy crap, don't let your kids run all over the store yanking all the darn clothes of the racks onto the floor. It's, oh my god, don't run me over trying to get the last stone cold creamer. And maybe....em....let me out into the road if there is a red light and you're waiting for it anyways. The small things.

Not the big stupid political and social ills of the past. The little stuff. That's my common decency.

How can I talk about the things that work for me in my life and my relationship without having someone remind me of the evils of society, WHICH I AM NOT DISMISSING, especially in the era people seem hell bent on smearing on my idea of normal for me.


j

[princessbelle]

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.

I agree. Anything done that is not your choice is stupid and quite frankly dangerous. Everyone should do as they feel they should do as long as it doesn't infringe on others. And why should we feel we have the right to care??? If it is a personal choice and consensual and nobody has to smack others around (figurativly) to feel ok about it...then have at it.

Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.


j

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by femmsational

I agree. Anything done that is not your choice is stupid and quite frankly dangerous. Everyone should do as they feel they should do as long as it doesn't infringe on others. And why should we feel we have the right to care??? If it is a personal choice and consensual and nobody has to smack others around (figurativly) to feel ok about it...then have at it.

Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.


j

I sure can't and wouldn't tell anyone how to post.

I just feel that bringing up the 50s as the wonderful, poetic, patriotic, perfect moral, best manners way of life, is so far from the truth it is hard not to discuss it and call it out for what it was.

I mean it's cool if that how someone wants to live, but it is important to really see it for what it was. Just pointing out that fantasy vs. reality is important to discuss sometimes maybe is my point.

That's how i see it anyway.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by femmsational

...
Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.
j

I am pretty sure I know what you mean, but in terms of "language" - and please don't slay me for this, I will think about it more later and probably come up with better terminology - I think what you're trying to say is you and your partner enjoy stereotypical binary gender roles, including chivalry, etc etc.

Am I on the right track?

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

I am pretty sure I know what you mean, but in terms of "language" - and please don't slay me for this, I will think about it more later and probably come up with better terminology - I think what you're trying to say is you and your partner enjoy stereotypical binary gender roles, including chivalry, etc etc.

Am I on the right track?

LOL!! I think you're on the same track I'm on, not sure it's the "right track"


I don't think that I would say Brute and i *enjoy* cause that's kinda like a preference. I would say that the core of who we are, UNFORTUNATLY, fit into societies version of stereotypical binary gender roles. (phew. mouth full that was)


And I think that's where this issue starts to go sideways. First people are lazy in language and thought. Second, there really is no correct language to use in this instance because it all revolves back to societal ideas. I just have to call bullshit on that.

All of us, especially me, need to be more careful when talking about what makes us tick as an individual. Words matter and sometimes if we would take two more seconds to think, we might pick a word that doesn't push other peoples buttons.

But on the flip side, if what works for me is something that society labels one thing, please don't dismiss that what works for me, may work for me outside of societies ideas or sterotypes. Just because what works for me is something that screams out OPPRESION, does not mean that it's not me. Or that I am glamorizing or wishisg for that oppresion. And when people say that being a certain way is wrong or does not acknowlege the hardships of the past, that is just as off base as someone glamourizing the 50's or pick an era.


There has got to be a way to not have this same argument over and over.


I'm not trying to be right or prove a point or any such nonsense. I'm trying to figure out how to talk about my relationship, without offending others. Cause whatever I may say, could and usually does illicet this type of response. It's hurtful and sad. It would be nice to feel free to just speak about my truth without being so worried I'm gonna say the wrong thing because of societies limitations.



j

[BullDog]

At this lesbian feminist household where history matters, I took out the garbage yesterday (doesn't need it today) and Belle is cooking meatloaf, mashed potatoes and green beans for dinner. We were both taught good manners by our parents and we don't need to glorify the 1950s or any past eras to treat each other and other people with respect. We are living in 2012 and happy to do so.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by femmsational

What I love about most FTM's is the strength that seems to accrue during the transition. It's a strong person that can spit in the eye of "normal" to become their normal. Makes me all squishy inside.

disclaimer...please note I am posting in a thread about FTM's in the Trans Zone. I do realize that the above could apply to pretty much.....everybody.

[Martina]

I would like to repeat that I said, and maintain, that I do not care what people do in their own homes and relationships. I do not think that people's individual choices are wrong. I do think that holding up a patriarchal family model as an example of how people ought to live is beyond wrong. Unbelievably wrong. And it's a fight long since over in the culture at large. If membership in my subculture requires that I give up the gains made for civil rights in the larger culture, then . . . I vote for human rights.

That said, I do not think that anyone is living in a way that deprives them of their human rights. But if someone -- like the couple in the past -- were to endorse that again, recommend it, hold it up as an example, then to not call it out is wrong. I repeat the word -- "wrong."

[Leigh]

For me it'll always be their energy and just how they are themselves no matter what anyone else says or thinks

[BullDog]

I agree with you 100% Martina.

I also never made any judgements whatsoever on anyone's personal relationships or desires. I haven't seen anyone doing that at all.

What do I like about FTMS- I like and admire FTMS that are comfortable in their skin and those that are feminists and understand and fight for women as equals.

Originally Posted by Martina

I would like to repeat that I said, and maintain, that I do not care what people do in their own homes and relationships. I do not think that people's individual choices are wrong. I do think that holding up a patriarchal family model as an example of how people ought to live is beyond wrong. Unbelievably wrong. And it's a fight long since over in the culture at large. If membership in my subculture requires that I give up the gains made for civil rights in the larger culture, then . . . I vote for human rights.

That said, I do not think that anyone is living in a way that deprives them of their human rights. But if someone -- like the couple in the past -- were to endorse that again, recommend it, hold it up as an example, then to not call it out is wrong. I repeat the word -- "wrong."

[Bèsame*]

Not really quite sure what it is, but I'm liking the attraction so far...I'm still learning

[Medusa]

Ok, Snowy just made me have a lightbulb moment.

So, I called Snowy and said, "What am I missing here? How is this not about desire?"

The answer is that it IS about desire until it's not.

I read back a little further in this thread and see something here that happens a lot on the Planet (and it online spaces in general).

When we start out talking about desire (and this thread in it's baby-state IS about desire "What attracts you..."), we often fall into this pattern of talking about markers.

Markers like what makes a Femme or a Butch or a Transperson attractive to us.

"...holding doors", "...pulling out chairs", "...driving the flirtation"

Those markers, and the conversation around them, often ends up being a grunt-fest of who can out-Femme, out-Butch, or out-Trans the next person. Because let's face it, there are a lot of single folks up in these threads talking about their desires. It plays out like a dating thread sometimes.

When we do that, I think some of us start holding up those (unexamined) markers as what I like to call "the apex of dick mountain". It's very Patriarchal.

It's the kind of stuff that implies that Femmes don't hold doors open for their partners or that "true" or "real" or "old school" Butches do x, y, z.
That stuff needs to be examined. Thoughtfully and dynamically.

I think it's ok to say and want "the person I'm interested in to hold a door open for me". Where we get into that unexamined area is when we lock up on "Transmen hold doors open".
Because people are not absolutes.
Neither are genders.
And certainly not desires.

The lightbulb moment for me is that all of this might be rooted in desire but that when it bumps up against the cadre of -ims, it is no longer about desire but about that ingrained crap we've been fed as women and men.
That may not change what we want from the people we desire but we damn well better understand why.

I have more but am still processing.

Thanks for letting me blather.

[femmsational]

I get that Medusa and feel the same way.

But....I always have a but.....How do those of us who happen to fall into this category, who ARE aware of the isms that are plopped onto our way of being...talk about what floats our boat, without offending.

Cause I really did try to speak from my me voice about how and why this type of kink(gah hate using that word for this) works in my life with my guy. Yet people still seemed to think I was White-washing.

I'm stuck. I know in my head I'm not white-washing but if my words are giving that impression, I don't know what to do?


I really do like to interact with people who fit into "my type" but I agree, sometimes the language and thoughts that are used get really sloppy and offensive. Should we have a discussion about proper language in this instance??


just mulling and trying to find a way to be me, without offending you....general you...

julie

[Medusa]

Let me make something perfectly clear:

(and Martina, this is not specifically for you but rather a general note because I don't want there to be any doubt about the note I left earlier in this thread)

I am *not* saying that we shouldn't pick apart desire. I think it's healthy to do that and I think it helps us evolve as a community toward something a little less binary and patriarchal to something more "us".

What I am saying is that there is a way to dismantle desire humanely and with sensitivity to the fact that desire and kink often intersect with -isms.

I get very irritated when adults try to tell other adults that finding something sexy or hot within the confines of their private relationships is wrong.
Why? Because I don't think we have the right to do that. And honestly? I don't want another adult who I am not having sex with telling me that my kink is bad or wrong or blah blah blah.

Because who are you at that point? Who are you to think that you know better for me what I want than I do?

Now, and this where I go back to all I said earlier, we all need to be dismantling our desires on a personal level AND on a community level.

I was on the phone with Snowy earlier and we were talking about kink and how the intersections of kink often have overtones of sexism, ageim ,racism, classism, and lots of other.

I am personally uncomfortable with the idea that age play almost exclusively focuses on having a giggling "younger" baby girl or a good "little" boy. Where are the folks asking for a hot older Femme or a "Grandpa"-type Butch? Does that mean that I view all age play as ageist? No.
I think people's desires are dictated internally and that is, quite frankly, none of my damn business. Or yours.
Where it becomes the business of all of us is if a dynamic is continuously being upheld as the "standard for awesome", especially if it is deeply rooted in the very -isms that we don't want replayed over and over on this site.

I do think, however, that when we discuss things like the above it is reasonable to say to one another "Have you ever considered why age play focuses on younger individuals?" without doing that whole "Well, if you were doing it right, you'd be doing x, y, or z."

I felt earlier when reading this thread that we were going down that road of "anyone who participates in this is X, Y, Z-label because OBVIOUSLY they haven't thought about the ramifications for Feminism, sexism, etc."
I don't want that.
I don't want us to be so quick to judge rather than discuss.

I think that some of you brought up some very good points about rewriting history so that sexist notions of what a "wife" looks like are white-washed so that the dirty business of disempowerment doesn't bump up against anyone's kink.
Thing is, I think it's possible that people are willing to take that role out and play with it in their personal lives in a way that makes them feel empowered. That's a win for Feminism, imo.


P.S. I don't do drive-by' in rep messages so if you want to converse with me then you need to use this thread, a private message, Facebook, my phone #, my email, etc.