June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[julieisafemme]

Hi Julie! I am glad you got your coffee. I have my tea.

If I can paraphrase your two questions:

How do we go from the 50s sucked to a larger discussion of feminism?

Why do we have to break down femme?

I hope I have those right.

I think that taking any conversation to a bigger picture place is always helpful and, to me, fun. There are many times that I don't understand what people are talking about and am limited, especially in writing, from grasping the point. Sometimes I might figure it out months later! Heh! So I think that there can always be meaning beyond what seems to be a simple discussion. The fun part is that meaning might be vastly different for different people.

As far as why break down femme? For me as a latecomer to femme this ongoing discussion has been enormously helpful. I love hearing how other people experience femme. I do not always agree. It does not matter though because I have learned I can still be femme even if I don't agree with how others do it! That was a big deal to me.

Originally Posted by femmsational

Can I ask two questions???


And please know that I mean NO disrespect, there is absolutely NO judgement, and I admire everybody for doing what they feel is authintic in their life.


1- When I saw Snow's first question. It seemed real simple to me. As evidenced by my response.

My question......how do we go from what *I* feel is a simple straight forward, the world was stupid, some people are still stupid answer, into a discussion of the feminist movement and the power players and et al.?

I know that sometimes I don't get down and dirty with things, but for me, the most simple answer is the most logical solution kinda thing?? Again, there is no judgement. I strictly want to understand the line of thinking. Cause maybe a little part of me feels I should go there too. you know? I really do. When I was in law school we had many courses in which we had to dig into the minds of others and I think I still have a hangover from that.


2- Medusa's last post help me formulate this question that has been bouncing around in my head for a while. Thanks Medusa!!

As a femme, I enjoy, love, need the bonding with other femmes. I love talking about what makes each one the femme they are. I like hearing histories and being invited into their lives and understanding what made them the femme they are today. However, I'm not understanding why we as femmes need to completley tear apart the meaning of femme, try to understand and put constraints on what *femme* is, is not, should be, could be...etc. Or Medusa are you talking more about just bonding discussions on a larger scale. Because I understand those. Obviously, I've never had the gift of being able to attend a conferance. And I sure am glad I missed that first one you described. I'm not nice.

It concerns me for a couple reasons if we are trying to label and define *femme.* But that's just me. And I really want to understand how other think about that?

Another note....I do COMPLETLEY agree that in the past, present and future, people have and will, display horrible bigotry towards people that are not *them*. The others I guess I'd call it. I believe that whatever group has been *othered* should stand up and call that bullshit out real quick and in a hurry!!! Actually, I feel that even when not in the *othered* group, if dumb shit behavior is displayed, you (general) should call it out. But I have concerns about how some of this sets up an us-vs-them sorta vibe which to *memememe* can be just as harming.

I'm not going real deep into my thinking because I really want to see what *you* think about my questions. Cause to me, that's WAY more interesting that thought i live with daily.

Or maybe this should be a different thread. Oh well, I just thought I'd through it out here and see.



j

[Medusa]

I think that teasing apart Femme was part of my coming out process but that teasing apart Femme can help us get down to bone of who we are even as we're more settled.
Like, I've been out and identified as Femme for about 15 years.
My Femme looks very different today than it did 15 years ago partly because I've been exposed to other Femmes and partly because I've figured out that the "glittery babygirl" thing didn't *have* to apply to me.

I don't want to put constraints on what Femme is. I want everyone who identifies as Femme to be exactly the Femme they are without all the bullshit from outside.

What I find in my personal life is that I *do* fence Femme. I do dismantle and reclaim Femme in ways that feel empowering to me.
Part of the act of fencing might come across as un-fencing if that makes any sense. I fence (protect it) by reminding the younger Femmes in my life that they don't need to wear certain things, be certain things, they can just be who they are. I protect Femme by turning shit like "Femme needs Butch to exist" away at the door. I protect it by speaking up when I see Femme being used as "dating pool" instead of honored individually.

I also do not always agree...or maybe the better word for me would be 'identify'...with how other people claim Femme. Like, I see Femme as a Queer identity. It's hard for me to see Straight folks partnered with other Straight folks claiming Femme and even harder to try to identify with it. Doesn't mean I try to tell them they can't claim it, just means I don't resonate with them like I do Queer Femmes.
And that's where I remind myself that I don't get to or have to police that.

Redefining Femme, teasing it apart, reclaiming it, etc. can come with a price if we aren't super careful. I've seen conversations about celebrating Femme actually narrow the definition of what Femme is and I don't want that. I want my sisters, and even those who aren't sister but who exist in the same space, to feel honored in whatever form they take. I'd like to look up one day and see that Femme is so expanded and stretched that old femmes, fat femmes, differently-abeld Femmes, Femmes who fuck genders other than Butch, Femmes of Color, Femmes who don't have conventional beauty privilege, and Femmes who feel 'othered' don't have to keep having conversations and convincing people that they are Femme without the caveat. I don't know a way to say that any better right now but it's something akin to exploding our conception of "normal".

[femmsational]

Thank you all for being willing to answer my clumsy questions.

I love all the different thinking processes I'm seeing.

I'm sorry Snow if you feel I've hijacked your thread. Let me know and I'll try to start a different one!!


j

[princessbelle]

I see femme as just a fluidity of inner beauty that resonates who you are and who you want to be.

I see all gender that way.

If a masculine butch stood in front of me or FtM or Trans or any person and said they feel they are femme, or they ID as femme?

More power to them!!!!

There is no "femme detector test" that we walk into and it closes the door and the light goes green or red. It is our own truths.

IMO the one and ONLY thing that is important with IDs is what you, yourself decide. There is no ifs, ands or buts or becauses or rules or guidelines how you dress or who you take to bed, about it at all.

If you are straight and want to ID as femme? Do it. If your vision is that femme's only date lesbians or other femmes or FtMs or whatever...have at it. No one's view or opinion on things will ever negate or transfer my ID. No one has the power to do that. No one ever will.

[julieisafemme]

I agree Belle but it does bug me when straight people say they are femme or queer. I guess I feel that way because my road to claiming queer and femme came with a lot of loss and grief and I feel like I fought to be seen as who and what I am today. I don't quite understand why a straight person would identify tha way except to be even more than an ally? It does make me cranky though!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I agree Belle but it does bug me when straight people say they are femme or queer. I guess I feel that way because my road to claiming queer and femme came with a lot of loss and grief and I feel like I fought to be seen as who and what I am today. I don't quite understand why a straight person would identify tha way except to be even more than an ally? It does make me cranky though!

Know what pisses me off even more.

When I log in here and I see the Femme, Butch, Trans, Zie's, post a picture of a feminine woman and refer to her as Femme or when describing a straight (hetero) woman they see on the street and have a boner for as Femme.

It's a mixture of anger, hurst, angst, and seperation. It's nothing to do with insecurity, jealousy it's all to do with stop giving other's what is MINE and I've worked hard for!

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Know what pisses me off even more.

When I log in here and I see the Femme, Butch, Trans, Zie's, post a picture of a feminine woman and refer to her as Femme or when describing a straight (hetero) woman they see on the street and have a boner for as Femme.

It's a mixture of anger, hurst, angst, and seperation. It's nothing to do with insecurity, jealousy it's all to do with stop giving other's what is MINE and I've worked hard for!

i totally resonate with this post. i don’t think that butches realize, that even when they do this in the spirit of a harmless fantasy, that it causes some of us femmes to feel separated and angry as we have fought to shine in our femme uniqueness.We fight to be seen as FEMME, not a hetero feminine woman. It isn’t about jealousy, it’s about feeling that we belong in this community.

One thing that we have is that butches are attracted to us. If they desire straight (heater) women, we wonder where we really fit in.

If i were to come up with a list of people i am sexually attracted to, not one straight man or woman would come to mind.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I agree Belle but it does bug me when straight people say they are femme or queer. I guess I feel that way because my road to claiming queer and femme came with a lot of loss and grief and I feel like I fought to be seen as who and what I am today. I don't quite understand why a straight person would identify tha way except to be even more than an ally? It does make me cranky though!

I get this i do!!! I believe your thoughts are the majority opinion on that. I don't know why i don't feel that way to be honest. I just feel that anyone (that means anyone) has the right to ID anyway they want to.

It doesn't bother me about straight people doing that either. Maybe i should examine the "why" it doesn't bother me a little more. I guess for one thing i've never ran into that. Most of my friends when i say i am a femme, they don't have a clue what i'm talking about. LOL.

Anyway, good discussion.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I get this i do!!! I believe your thoughts are the majority opinion on that. I don't know why i don't feel that way to be honest. I just feel that anyone (that means anyone) has the right to ID anyway they want to.

It doesn't bother me about straight people doing that either. Maybe i should examine the "why" it doesn't bother me a little more. I guess for one thing i've never ran into that. Most of my friends when i say i am a femme, they don't have a clue what i'm talking about. LOL.

Anyway, good discussion.

It bothers me if I hear a straight woman refer to herself as Femme. For me, Femme is part of my queer identity. There is no place in the world for me, for a straight woman while living her visible life filled with privilege to refer to herself as Femme.

Julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Julie

It bothers me if I hear a straight woman refer to herself as Femme. For me, Femme is part of my queer identity. There is no place in the world for me, for a straight woman while living her visible life filled with privilege to refer to herself as Femme.

Julie

I have straight girlfriends, who are female bodied we are worlds apart when it comes to how we live our lives. Kelly doesn't have to endure the questioning I do if I do come out as Femme at work. Kelly doesn't feel out of place at the Buffalo Wings during a game. Kelly and her whomever she dates can hold hands and kiss (peck) on the lips and people aren't going to be like WHAT!


As soon as I open my mouth and speak my queer identity is known because of the way I speak on certain subject manners and how I address them.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I get this i do!!! I believe your thoughts are the majority opinion on that. I don't know why i don't feel that way to be honest. I just feel that anyone (that means anyone) has the right to ID anyway they want to.

It doesn't bother me about straight people doing that either. Maybe i should examine the "why" it doesn't bother me a little more. I guess for one thing i've never ran into that. Most of my friends when i say i am a femme, they don't have a clue what i'm talking about. LOL.

Anyway, good discussion.

Well we live in groovy land so young people here seem to push the boundaries of definitions on any number of things. In some ways I guess it means that the othering of queers is less with young people. But to me it is even more othering to say that there is no distinction between us. I don't feel accepted by that. I feel discounted.

[princessbelle]

Makes perfect sense..

I guess i've never encountered that. I would probably have a different view point.

Actually, never gave it much thought at all.

I live a very sheltered, straight cultured, life down here in Tennessee. No body ever says femme, besides me.

I'll have to think on that some more....

[Nat]

As a person who spent a long time in contemplation before any action was taken outside of "straight" behavior - never having kissed another woman before the age of 27 - I didn't feel the right to identify as anything other than possibly bisexual until I had moved beyond crushes and imaginings and dreams and contemplations and into the "reality" of physicality.

Now I look back at all that time I denied myself to myself not simply because I was ashamed but because I didn't let myself identify more accurately without the *proof* I felt the physical/sexual would have given (and eventually did give) me.

Because I lived in a "straight" marriage, I felt voiceless when talking about my own sexuality/orientation. A girl or woman who has only been with men talking about not knowing if she's a lesbian - who listens to her or respects what identity she forms? I shut myself up.

And though I do get tired of women I perceive as straight talking to me about how they might be lesbian or wish they were lesbian or hate men or blah blah blah, I don't want to deny anybody the right to identify as queer no matter what state their lives are in.

I'd rather I hadn't silenced myself - feeling the need to manifest sexually my desires before allowing myself a claim to any real queer identity.

I have never been a thing like June Cleaver. She represents much of what I see as society's expectations of me as a female person.

I could totally get into some Lucy/Ethel slash though.