June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[girl_dee]

When i think of the evolvement of women's roles in the home and society regarding television i not only think of June Cleaver.

Bewitched ~ Samantha was a stay at home mom. Soon as Darren walked in she fixed him a *double*. She was allowed to pop in at the office but usually just for a visit.

The Honeymooners ~ i absolutely loved this show, but poor Alice. All hell broke loose because when Ralph got laid off, she went and got a job. And as was brought up in another thread *Bang zoom*.. with a fist in her face. You never saw Alice threaten to Bang Zoom Ralphieboy.

Ozzie and Harriet ~ i only saw the reruns but Harriet Nelson was just like June Cleaver i think.

Dick Van Dyke ~ Same as above

I Love Lucy ~ Lucy of course wanted to be in the show
(Another sign of the times, Lucy was the first woman to be shown pregnant on TV, and the word pregnant was not allowed. She was shunned for years for being in a *mixed marriage*. )

There were so many more back then..

Then we progressed

The Flintsones ~ modeled after the Honeymooners, even in cartoon land the wives were opressed.

That Girl ~ Marlo Thomas as a female lead

Mary Tyler Moore ~ A woman working in an office.. i LOVED her.

and the list goes on.



My point is that unfortunately June was not an unusual character for Hollywood and as kids it's all we had.

i wonder what the kids of today will have to say in 50 years?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

When i think of the evolvement of women's roles in the home and society regarding television i not only think of June Cleaver.

Bewitched ~ Samantha was a stay at home mom. Soon as Darren walked in she fixed him a *double*. She was allowed to pop in at the office but usually just for a visit.

The Honeymooners ~ i absolutely loved this show, but poor Alice. All hell broke loose because when Ralph got laid off, she went and got a job. And as was brought up in another thread *Bang zoom*.. with a fist in her face. You never saw Alice threaten to Bang Zoom Ralphieboy.

Ozzie and Harriet ~ i only saw the reruns but Harriet Nelson was just like June Cleaver i think.

Dick Van Dyke ~ Same as above

I Love Lucy ~ Lucy of course wanted to be in the show
(Another sign of the times, Lucy was the first woman to be shown pregnant on TV, and the word pregnant was not allowed. She was shunned for years for being in a *mixed marriage*. )

There were so many more back then..

Then we progressed

The Flintsones ~ modeled after the Honeymooners, even in cartoon land the wives were opressed.

That Girl ~ Marlo Thomas as a female lead

Mary Tyler Moore ~ A woman working in an office.. i LOVED her.

and the list goes on.



My point is that unfortunately June was not an unusual character for Hollywood and as kids it's all we had.

i wonder what the kids of today will have to say in 50 years?

Claire Huxtable

Murphy Brown

Roseanne

Anne Romano

Kate & Allie

Cate Hennessey

Ellen Degeneres

Oprah Winfrey



We still do not see any of these women being upheld and used as comparisons when it comes to Femme.

[JustJo]

On straight women claiming Femme...

Like julieisafemme, I was very late coming out....as in a handful of years ago...and I spent a long time squashing down any self-knowledge about myself and my sexuality, refusing to look at what was missing. Once I finally figured it out, it was an incredibly freeing feeling....to be able to have a word for that part of who I am.

So...I don't want to share "femme" with straight women. I feel like they have plenty of other words they can use to describe themselves without co-opting ours.

That's really the only limit for me. I don't think femmes need to partner with butches, or anyone, to be femme. I have no problem with gay men claiming femme. For me, femme is a queer thing.

I get that maybe straight women admire something that we have or are, and want to claim femme...but that would be like me saying I admire Lady Snow and want to be like her...and claim Latina. It just doesn't work like that in my head.

Loving this conversation

[aishah]

Originally Posted by JustJo

On straight women claiming Femme...

Like julieisafemme, I was very late coming out....as in a handful of years ago...and I spent a long time squashing down any self-knowledge about myself and my sexuality, refusing to look at what was missing. Once I finally figured it out, it was an incredibly freeing feeling....to be able to have a word for that part of who I am.

So...I don't want to share "femme" with straight women. I feel like they have plenty of other words they can use to describe themselves without co-opting ours.

That's really the only limit for me. I don't think femmes need to partner with butches, or anyone, to be femme. I have no problem with gay men claiming femme. For me, femme is a queer thing.

I get that maybe straight women admire something that we have or are, and want to claim femme...but that would be like me saying I admire Lady Snow and want to be like her...and claim Latina. It just doesn't work like that in my head.

Loving this conversation

i pretty much agree with this. but i tend to defer to people's self-identifications, so i don't think i'd ever say to someone YOU cannot claim femme...but if somebody asks me, that's my view on it. to me, femme is by definition queer (whether it's a queer man or woman claiming that id). and to me it is my gender. and i do believe one can be femme and in a relationship that looks straight. or in a relationship with a straight man. that doesn't necessarily make a femme less queer.

the thing that REALLY bothers me, way more than straight women claiming femme, is when other queer people (especially butches and transguys) identify straight women as femmes. my partner and i had a conversation about this because his roommate is a straight woman and she's sweet and we get along well but he's like "y'all femmes like to talk so much" and i'm like she is NOT a femme. she doesn't id as femme. she's a feminine straight (very heteronormative) woman. to me there is a world of difference. same for feminine lesbians who don't id as femme. one of the things that came up with me and my partner is his ex is a feminine lesbian who is adamantly NOT femme...and he definitely has pointed that out...and i am like, well, how can you turn around and start labeling all these straight women who definitely don't id as femme, as femme?

i can't explain why that bugs me so much, but it does. maybe it's the way it feels like it contributes to further making us invisible and erasing us. maybe it's just that i like being a special snowflake.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I went to bed tired last night because I have spent 2 days discussing, dissecting, analyzing, and most of all examining myself and how June Cleaver and I had in common. Then my cock had a spot light shown on it and I was like

*CLARITY*

Not only will I never be her because I am Latina, not in the same economic level as her but I have a cock.


Mrs Cleaver would of been institutionalized for even attempting to suggest to Ward that she wanted to insert her cock into him. It wouldn't of mattered of the desire, need, want was there. Her womanly cock would of been rejected, she would of lost her boys, her life, her marriage everything.


I am glad we are examining this together, as Femme's and even though we may don the pearls, heels, and apron for some fucky/kinky/power dynamic time. We should not allow or stand by and continue to have someone who isn't Femme, who isn't Queer be held up as a role model for Femme. There are plenty of powerful, beautiful, not white, white, sexy women/Femme's out choose as role models.

June Cleaver just isn't it.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I went to bed tired last night because I have spent 2 days discussing, dissecting, analyzing, and most of all examining myself and how June Cleaver and I had in common. Then my cock had a spot light shown on it and I was like

*CLARITY*

Not only will I never be her because I am Latina, not in the same economic level as her but I have a cock.


Mrs Cleaver would of been institutionalized for even attempting to suggest to Ward that she wanted to insert her cock into him. It wouldn't of mattered of the desire, need, want was there. Her womanly cock would of been rejected, she would of lost her boys, her life, her marriage everything.


I am glad we are examining this together, as Femme's and even though we may don the pearls, heels, and apron for some fucky/kinky/power dynamic time. We should not allow or stand by and continue to have someone who isn't Femme, who isn't Queer be held up as a role model for Femme. There are plenty of powerful, beautiful, not white, white, sexy women/Femme's out choose as role models.

June Cleaver just isn't it.

a-f*cking-men

i might have had an epiphany of my own. i think that June Cleaver is the inspiration for feminism

i dont want to be June Cleaver and i never have. she's not my icon. and i dont think that June Cleaver wants me to be June Cleaver either.

i think, as time went on, June Cleaver would have looked at anyone holding her up as an icon and said, "oh HELL no! i was doing what i needed to do, with the resources i felt were available to me, in order to safeguard my children and THAT is all."

June watched real icons like Shirley Chisolm graduate from Columbia and go on to be elected to Congress and run for president. She read Gloria Steinum's articles about women being forced to choose between home and career. she had a copy of The Feminine Mystique under her pillow and read it 4 pages at a time while Ward was sawing logs or between vacuuming and folding the laundry and at some point the laundry was left unfolded because she couldnt put the damn book down.

i like to pretend that June raised sons that werent assheads. i like to imagine June raising daughters because those women raised the people who changed that world into our world. there may not be much to admire about her era but there was something to learn from it and the women who came from there are the women who created and/or educated us, for better or worse, to separate ourselves from the trap they lived in. we have a lot to acknowledge them for, even if it was just because they provided an example of what we didnt want. people dont always know what they want but they usually know what they dont want and we know some of what we dont want because of June Cleaver and women like her. i dont think June wanted it either. i think it was what she had and she decided to rock it with some heels and some pearls.

it's a mistake to think that the Junes didnt want something different, that they didnt work toward something different, or that they have nothing to do with the something different that was created in the 60s. it's also a mistake to pretend that these arent the same women who envisioned, outlined, and took the some of first steps toward undermining a corner of patriarchy from the inside.

after a few years of saying "Ward, dear....." i think June got tired. i dont see the June Cleavers of the world as continuing to consent to oppression. i see them as the founders of a part of feminism's underground

[The_Lady_Snow]

Romney would love for all women to be like Mrs Cleaver, and I don't mean in a kink/dynamic/sexy time kinda way

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Claire Huxtable

Murphy Brown

Roseanne

Anne Romano

Kate & Allie

Cate Hennessey

Ellen Degeneres

Oprah Winfrey



We still do not see any of these women being upheld and used as comparisons when it comes to Femme.

No we sure don't. i personally don't resonate with any of them, although at one time i may have.

Maybe because June was the absolute epitome of what men felt and do still feel women should act/look/smell/behave like, she is easily thrown out there as a comparison to us.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

No we sure don't. i personally don't resonate with any of them, although at one time i may have.

Maybe because June was the absolute epitome of what men felt and do still feel women should act/look/smell/behave like, she is easily thrown out there as a comparison to us.

Right and that right there drives me batty when we get broad stroked into that kind of thinking....

There is no all powerful grand poobah of Femme.... We all do Femme different.