Masculine of Center -- the term

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

One context at BV was the fact that organizationally, many butch women felt that they were being excluded. I don't know the petty politics. But there was a shift in power among various groups, with women-ID'd folk perceiving a loss. Who knows? But that is part of the context of the original response.

In my OP, I tried to point out that I don't care really. The fact is the term, if it flies, will fly on its own, will take on its own life. I really don't know how that can be argued with. That's how language works. That's how politics work. There is little memory of history or context re things like this.

Requoting Halberstam for a separate good point



Here's a case where masculinity isn't to be foregrounded. Once they have been perceived as male, masculinity is an individual issue almost.

Whatever the context among activists, the term is carrying baggage.

There is also an arrogance among activists that everyone will know and understand their work, that people will retain their history, will be able to detect their intentions. Would that were so.

i disagree re: history - mostly because i am hypersensitive to the issue of racism and lack of rootedness in context and experience - but i am grateful for the background and can see where the resistance due to centering male id'ed folks comes from. i think we have had that discussion here on the planet several times also (re: male id'ed butches being privileged over female id'ed butches).

i have to admit, i was surprised when you started challenging the term masculinity because in my experience most butches do id as masculine in some way or another (whether they identify as woman or not). the word masculinity is routinely used in the butch zone here to refer to both female and male id'ed butches. even small things here are characterized by notions of masculinity and femininity - the "what would you never do" thread, i remember a lot of butches stating they would never do things that are often labeled as feminine in our society (like wear heels, bake, etc.) and femmes said they would never do many things that are labeled masculine in our society.

i feel like it is a struggle to in some ways distance ourselves from traditional labels of "masculine" and "feminine" and in the same way still id as butch and femme (or whatever terms one chooses to use). i struggle with that myself. because those terms are usually assumed to go along with certain kinds of presentations that are decidedly masculine or feminine (though not necessarily being tied to being male or female). i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex. i think it's possible for one person to be both masculine AND feminine. for me, femme is, as my friend leah says, femininity "blown up, turned inside out, and remixed."

i do get the resistance around male id'ed butches being centered, though. that at least makes the controversy make more sense to me.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by aishah

i feel like it is a struggle to in some ways distance ourselves from traditional labels of "masculine" and "feminine" and in the same way still id as butch and femme (or whatever terms one chooses to use). i struggle with that myself. because those terms are usually assumed to go along with certain kinds of presentations that are decidedly masculine or feminine (though not necessarily being tied to being male or female). i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex. i think it's possible for one person to be both masculine AND feminine. for me, femme is, as my friend leah says, femininity "blown up, turned inside out, and remixed."

Your whole post resonated so much with me but I wanted to thank you in particular for this excerpt (I bolded one part that is such a good clear summary of an important point that helps people "get" the b/f identity).

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

i have to admit, i was surprised when you started challenging the term masculinity because in my experience most butches do id as masculine in some way or another (whether they identify as woman or not).

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

Originally Posted by aishah

the word masculinity is routinely used in the butch zone here to refer to both female and male id'ed butches. even small things here are characterized by notions of masculinity and femininity - the "what would you never do" thread, i remember a lot of butches stating they would never do things that are often labeled as feminine in our society (like wear heels, bake, etc.) and femmes said they would never do many things that are labeled masculine in our society.

And that stuff is sometimes super sad. Usually it gets some reaction on this site.

i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex.

I agree. And I agree with Julie that reclaiming and redefining masculinity is hugely worthwhile.

But making your UMBRELLA term an ID that puts masculinity first makes it about that in a way that it hasn't always been. It's never been incidental. But to put it first re-valorizes that already highly rewarded signifier. And in my opinion, it does it without any indication that it is being looked at from any angle other than a conventional one. You have to read the fine print to see that. And most people won't.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

But making your UMBRELLA term an ID that puts masculinity first makes it about that in a way that it hasn't always been. It's never been incidental. But to put it first re-valorizes that already highly rewarded signifier. And in my opinion, it does it without any indication that it is being looked at from any angle other than a conventional one. You have to read the fine print to see that. And most people won't.

Martina, your post gives me something more to think about. I do identitfy as masculine it is my ID. For me, I do not see masculinity as male or female.

I did not think I was giving masculinity a place of regard in the conventional sense. Perhaps I have been. I need to think about it. I grew up surrounded by very strong women that could be defined as masculine and their strength was not a negative.

I have learned quite a a bit here in the forumns through the years. Thanks to you and others.

[Okiebug61]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

I do not id as being masucline at all. The world's stereotyping put's that crap on my ass imo. I am a lesbian that loves being a woman and loves loving a woman. I refuse to accept the stereotypical lables of what a woman should wear, carry or act. I'm am highly offended when anyone attempts to deam what I have the right to think about myself and think they have the right to determine how I define to ID myself.

[Medusa]

I hope Jack will come in here and discuss her experience with the BV conference. She was on the very first "steering" committee for all of 30 days. She chose to leave when it became clear to her that the Aging Female "Butch" in "Butch Voices" was going to take a back seat.

That's her story to tell and I hope she tells it.

One thing I will say is that I was really glad to see that there was a push to welcome and embrace young masculinities of color, experiences of different abilities, and folks with non-traditional masculine experiences. It was time for it.

Something that happened for me when I was on the original steering committee for the Femme Collective is that my world of "what I didn't know" was expanded. And it hurt like hell sometimes. And this is where I tell you I fought pretty hard to police "Femme" from Men. Was that my privilege talking or my fear? Was that my indignant belief that Femme was Queer and Female? At the time, I had to let some of my shit go. Some of that shit that I had fought really hard to claim, because, in the end, the most important thing for me was that I was recognized for who I was and that all of my sisters were recognized for who they were.

I don't know what the point of this was, but there it is.

[Toughy]

Concerning the center............How about the center is androgynous-an equal mix of masculinity and femininity? MoC simply would be the masculine side of androgyny. Femme of Center would be the feminine side. There is no male or female sex involved. It's about the energy. *shrug*

White butch women, including me, got a bit bent (to say the least) about the MoC thing. So much so that it caused a split within the BV Conference leadership and community and it got messy and there were a couple of three issues besides MoC. Nobody was listening to anybody. BV leadership includes many PoC and it's not easy on white folk when PoC are in charge. Change is hard.

I went to the Conference and was invited to sit on the InterGenerational Panel. It was an amazing experience. I am still jaw dropped amazed at those kids.....

I went with an open heart and mind to try to understand what was going on. I came away from it with a better understanding of the dynamics.

I do think the language could be tweaked, but I am not involved with BV so I made my suggestion and they can do what they want. No skin off my back.

I still don't claim masculine of center as identity.....I'm a butch woman....but it certainly fits as a description of how I present.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Concerning the center............How about the center is androgynous-an equal mix of masculinity and femininity? MoC simply would be the masculine side of androgyny. Femme of Center would be the feminine side. There is no male or female sex involved. It's about the energy. *shrug*

White butch women, including me, got a bit bent (to say the least) about the MoC thing. So much so that it caused a split within the BV Conference leadership and community and it got messy and there were a couple of three issues besides MoC. Nobody was listening to anybody. BV leadership includes many PoC and it's not easy on white folk when PoC are in charge. Change is hard.

I went to the Conference and was invited to sit on the InterGenerational Panel. It was an amazing experience. I am still jaw dropped amazed at those kids.....

I went with an open heart and mind to try to understand what was going on. I came away from it with a better understanding of the dynamics.

I do think the language could be tweaked, but I am not involved with BV so I made my suggestion and they can do what they want. No skin off my back.

I still don't claim masculine of center as identity.....I'm a butch woman....but it certainly fits as a description of how I present.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other, I don't care who's in charge, I just want clear language so that I understand. No more no less.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't have an opinion one way or the other, I don't care who's in charge, I just want clear language so that I understand. No more no less.

It's pretty clear to those who claim it..........<grin> .......and if you don't get stuck on the phrase 'MoC' it's pretty damned inclusive and clear to me. And I met the folks who coined the phrase and they are mostly female/woman id'd folks and not afraid to say so.

Us old farts have to remember we are old and the kids speak a language that is hard for us to get..........<grin>

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Toughy

It's pretty clear to those who claim it..........<grin> .......and if you don't get stuck on the phrase 'MoC' it's pretty damned inclusive and clear to me. And I met the folks who coined the phrase and they are mostly female/woman id'd folks and not afraid to say so.

Us old farts have to remember we are old and the kids speak a language that is hard for us to get..........<grin>

LOL I know I'm old, which is why I've been asking for clarification..and the cat is trying to post.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Us old farts have to remember we are old and the kids speak a language that is hard for us to get..........<grin>

True, and amazing things have happened since I was young. BUT, in some ways the United States is more conservative than it was when I was a kid. And my memory of pre-Reagan days is an asset, something the young do not have.

A good friend of mine is from a different country and culture -- I am not going to specify to avoid squabbling -- and he and his generation are MUCH more conservative than his parents.

The world has forgotten how far to the right it has drifted. There have been huge gains, but within a context, a larger context, of a more conservative ethos. I think it's changing as the demographics change. But it will be a long time before we replace what we have lost -- genuinely radical and liberal movements and institutions. And, of course, they will look and be different. And probably the most creative and powerful will come from outside the United States and Western Europe.

I have a healthy fear of the conventional because I know the real prison that it used to be for women and others. And it still can be. How many states now can we not get an abortion in? State after state is turning back the clock on these and other issues. Is it the last gasp of a dying ideology? Yes. But it still has power. Tremendous power.

It's alarming to me when something conventionally sexist is not seen or defended. I do think that is true of this phrase. As it reads, not as its creators intended it. Masculine of Center. How can its connotations be extracted from the context of policing gender, the context of bullying, the context of gender privilege? Is there any place where policing, bullying and gender privilege do not obtain? So casually invoking them, even when that is the opposite of your intention, should, IMO, send off alarm bells. Perhaps it only does in the old who can recall when gender oppression was the norm and objecting to it got you laughed at or hurt.

Compare that to queer, an umbrella term that came into use when I was already an adult. It was a rehabilitated pejorative. It had the power to appall. To frighten. Its connotations included glory holes and jail cells and bashings. And we took all that power away from our oppressors and turned it back on them.

[nowandthen]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't have an opinion one way or the other, I don't care who's in charge, I just want clear language so that I understand. No more no less.

But there is language and a definition and folks have said what it means to them, so I am confused? What will it take for you to understand that you may not need to understand? Maybe that is ok? not attacking I curious

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by nowandthen

But there is language and a definition and folks have said what it means to them, so I am confused? What will it take for you to understand that you may not need to understand? Maybe that is ok? not attacking I curious

Perhaps because there is not one but several definitions of the same word that confuses the word as I know the word to mean. That word "center". I know everyone has their own identity and have no definition problems surrounding the word "gender". When the two words are used together they do not make since to me. Toughy's use of energy makes more since to me than "gender" "center" does. And I'm old and understand the english language as I learned in that growing old. New concepts are not impossible to learn, but it does take time and if I want to be respectful of peoples gender identities then it behoves me to understand them. Clearer?