Masculine of Center -- the term

[Martina]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

This might explain it better. It is from the BBP website.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=FpZ-t...%3DFpZ-tv5TsjM

A lot of crafty stuff popped up.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

A lot of crafty stuff popped up.

Aaack! I am on an iPad and I can't figure out how to paste! So sorry! I will fire up the pc!

[Martina]

One context at BV was the fact that organizationally, many butch women felt that they were being excluded. I don't know the petty politics. But there was a shift in power among various groups, with women-ID'd folk perceiving a loss. Who knows? But that is part of the context of the original response.

In my OP, I tried to point out that I don't care really. The fact is the term, if it flies, will fly on its own, will take on its own life. I really don't know how that can be argued with. That's how language works. That's how politics work. There is little memory of history or context re things like this.

Requoting Halberstam for a separate good point

Halberstam: I think it presumes a center, I’m not sure about that. It presumes a scale that we all know and recognize. I don’t always know that I know what another queer person’s masculinity means anymore. I used to think I knew, but I realized I didn’t. For a lot of young masculine female bodied people who decide to transition, they’re doing so not because they’re so invested in masculinity but because they’re invested in forms of maleness that are then going to be in relation to other forms of maleness. They want to be gay men! In that scenario, masculinity isn’t the most important vector for them, it’s male embodiment or perceived male embodiment. My orientation is very much to feminine women, so butch still seems to have some sort of signifying power, given my set of desires and orientations. But masculine of center presumes that there’s an ideal, and that ideal presumes all kinds of things about race and class, and that we all know an ideal form when we see it. I can’t get into that kind of normative classification system that has a center and has margins. It’s a kind of colonial way of thinking about things, that there is a center and there are margins, and everyone’s aspiring to be center.

Here's a case where masculinity isn't to be foregrounded. Once they have been perceived as male, masculinity is an individual issue almost.

Whatever the context among activists, the term is carrying baggage.

There is also an arrogance among activists that everyone will know and understand their work, that people will retain their history, will be able to detect their intentions. Would that were so.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

One context at BV was the fact that organizationally, many butch women felt that they were being excluded. I don't know the petty politics. But there was a shift in power among various groups, with women-ID'd folk perceiving a loss. Who knows? But that is part of the context of the original response.

In my OP, I tried to point out that I don't care really. The fact is the term, if it flies, will fly on its own, will take on its own life. I really don't know how that can be argued with. That's how language works. That's how politics work. There is little memory of history or context re things like this.

Requoting Halberstam for a separate good point



Here's a case where masculinity isn't to be foregrounded. Once they have been perceived as male, masculinity is an individual issue almost.

Whatever the context among activists, the term is carrying baggage.

There is also an arrogance among activists that everyone will know and understand their work, that people will retain their history, will be able to detect their intentions. Would that were so.

i disagree re: history - mostly because i am hypersensitive to the issue of racism and lack of rootedness in context and experience - but i am grateful for the background and can see where the resistance due to centering male id'ed folks comes from. i think we have had that discussion here on the planet several times also (re: male id'ed butches being privileged over female id'ed butches).

i have to admit, i was surprised when you started challenging the term masculinity because in my experience most butches do id as masculine in some way or another (whether they identify as woman or not). the word masculinity is routinely used in the butch zone here to refer to both female and male id'ed butches. even small things here are characterized by notions of masculinity and femininity - the "what would you never do" thread, i remember a lot of butches stating they would never do things that are often labeled as feminine in our society (like wear heels, bake, etc.) and femmes said they would never do many things that are labeled masculine in our society.

i feel like it is a struggle to in some ways distance ourselves from traditional labels of "masculine" and "feminine" and in the same way still id as butch and femme (or whatever terms one chooses to use). i struggle with that myself. because those terms are usually assumed to go along with certain kinds of presentations that are decidedly masculine or feminine (though not necessarily being tied to being male or female). i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex. i think it's possible for one person to be both masculine AND feminine. for me, femme is, as my friend leah says, femininity "blown up, turned inside out, and remixed."

i do get the resistance around male id'ed butches being centered, though. that at least makes the controversy make more sense to me.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by aishah

i feel like it is a struggle to in some ways distance ourselves from traditional labels of "masculine" and "feminine" and in the same way still id as butch and femme (or whatever terms one chooses to use). i struggle with that myself. because those terms are usually assumed to go along with certain kinds of presentations that are decidedly masculine or feminine (though not necessarily being tied to being male or female). i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex. i think it's possible for one person to be both masculine AND feminine. for me, femme is, as my friend leah says, femininity "blown up, turned inside out, and remixed."

Your whole post resonated so much with me but I wanted to thank you in particular for this excerpt (I bolded one part that is such a good clear summary of an important point that helps people "get" the b/f identity).

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

i have to admit, i was surprised when you started challenging the term masculinity because in my experience most butches do id as masculine in some way or another (whether they identify as woman or not).

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

Originally Posted by aishah

the word masculinity is routinely used in the butch zone here to refer to both female and male id'ed butches. even small things here are characterized by notions of masculinity and femininity - the "what would you never do" thread, i remember a lot of butches stating they would never do things that are often labeled as feminine in our society (like wear heels, bake, etc.) and femmes said they would never do many things that are labeled masculine in our society.

And that stuff is sometimes super sad. Usually it gets some reaction on this site.

i also think it's possible for one person to embody both masculine and feminine qualities at the same time. but i thought that one of the positive gains that we have made in the last several years around gender was the understanding that one could be male or female (or any sex) and identify as masculine or feminine - that gender or presentation isn't tied to sex.

I agree. And I agree with Julie that reclaiming and redefining masculinity is hugely worthwhile.

But making your UMBRELLA term an ID that puts masculinity first makes it about that in a way that it hasn't always been. It's never been incidental. But to put it first re-valorizes that already highly rewarded signifier. And in my opinion, it does it without any indication that it is being looked at from any angle other than a conventional one. You have to read the fine print to see that. And most people won't.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

But making your UMBRELLA term an ID that puts masculinity first makes it about that in a way that it hasn't always been. It's never been incidental. But to put it first re-valorizes that already highly rewarded signifier. And in my opinion, it does it without any indication that it is being looked at from any angle other than a conventional one. You have to read the fine print to see that. And most people won't.

Martina, your post gives me something more to think about. I do identitfy as masculine it is my ID. For me, I do not see masculinity as male or female.

I did not think I was giving masculinity a place of regard in the conventional sense. Perhaps I have been. I need to think about it. I grew up surrounded by very strong women that could be defined as masculine and their strength was not a negative.

I have learned quite a a bit here in the forumns through the years. Thanks to you and others.

[Okiebug61]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think most butches DESCRIBE themselves -- or parts of themselves -- as masculine. That is not an ID. Not even close.

I do not id as being masucline at all. The world's stereotyping put's that crap on my ass imo. I am a lesbian that loves being a woman and loves loving a woman. I refuse to accept the stereotypical lables of what a woman should wear, carry or act. I'm am highly offended when anyone attempts to deam what I have the right to think about myself and think they have the right to determine how I define to ID myself.

[Medusa]

I hope Jack will come in here and discuss her experience with the BV conference. She was on the very first "steering" committee for all of 30 days. She chose to leave when it became clear to her that the Aging Female "Butch" in "Butch Voices" was going to take a back seat.

That's her story to tell and I hope she tells it.

One thing I will say is that I was really glad to see that there was a push to welcome and embrace young masculinities of color, experiences of different abilities, and folks with non-traditional masculine experiences. It was time for it.

Something that happened for me when I was on the original steering committee for the Femme Collective is that my world of "what I didn't know" was expanded. And it hurt like hell sometimes. And this is where I tell you I fought pretty hard to police "Femme" from Men. Was that my privilege talking or my fear? Was that my indignant belief that Femme was Queer and Female? At the time, I had to let some of my shit go. Some of that shit that I had fought really hard to claim, because, in the end, the most important thing for me was that I was recognized for who I was and that all of my sisters were recognized for who they were.

I don't know what the point of this was, but there it is.

[Toughy]

Concerning the center............How about the center is androgynous-an equal mix of masculinity and femininity? MoC simply would be the masculine side of androgyny. Femme of Center would be the feminine side. There is no male or female sex involved. It's about the energy. *shrug*

White butch women, including me, got a bit bent (to say the least) about the MoC thing. So much so that it caused a split within the BV Conference leadership and community and it got messy and there were a couple of three issues besides MoC. Nobody was listening to anybody. BV leadership includes many PoC and it's not easy on white folk when PoC are in charge. Change is hard.

I went to the Conference and was invited to sit on the InterGenerational Panel. It was an amazing experience. I am still jaw dropped amazed at those kids.....

I went with an open heart and mind to try to understand what was going on. I came away from it with a better understanding of the dynamics.

I do think the language could be tweaked, but I am not involved with BV so I made my suggestion and they can do what they want. No skin off my back.

I still don't claim masculine of center as identity.....I'm a butch woman....but it certainly fits as a description of how I present.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Concerning the center............How about the center is androgynous-an equal mix of masculinity and femininity? MoC simply would be the masculine side of androgyny. Femme of Center would be the feminine side. There is no male or female sex involved. It's about the energy. *shrug*

White butch women, including me, got a bit bent (to say the least) about the MoC thing. So much so that it caused a split within the BV Conference leadership and community and it got messy and there were a couple of three issues besides MoC. Nobody was listening to anybody. BV leadership includes many PoC and it's not easy on white folk when PoC are in charge. Change is hard.

I went to the Conference and was invited to sit on the InterGenerational Panel. It was an amazing experience. I am still jaw dropped amazed at those kids.....

I went with an open heart and mind to try to understand what was going on. I came away from it with a better understanding of the dynamics.

I do think the language could be tweaked, but I am not involved with BV so I made my suggestion and they can do what they want. No skin off my back.

I still don't claim masculine of center as identity.....I'm a butch woman....but it certainly fits as a description of how I present.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other, I don't care who's in charge, I just want clear language so that I understand. No more no less.