Changing last names

[imperfect_cupcake]

show me where I shamed someone for their CHOICE.

should I re-post my post about norms and what do you think that might mean and it NOT being about individuals but a greater...

hello? *tap tap* *tap*

maybe I should start speaking dutch? would that help?

probably not. I'm not sure you read my posts without the "acusitory meany mc mean angry poo breath" filter on me that wasn't *there*.

take that off, maybe put on the "wow, I've noticed that most femmes give their names up. Butches *tend* not to. maybe we should think about that" filter on.

If the subject of that *doesn't* interest you then say "I don't care if most femmes give their names and most butches don't. I don't agree with thinking about it. I've got dishes to do."

or whatever.

y'know?

[Julie]

Did I say honeybarbara you are shaming people?
No, I did not say that.
Perhaps you are feeling it on your own accord.
yknow?

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Julie

Did I say honeybarbara you are shaming people?
No, I did not say that.
Perhaps you are feeling it on your own accord.
yknow?

nope you didn't name anyone and I'm the one that brought it up. so if there is a pa statement of "gosh, it feels judgy in here" *eyeball round* *saying nothing direct*

...and not naming who's dealin' it, I'll be happy to address it. so if you don't mean *me*, then how bout:

actually quoting who and what they said to actually address the comments you *do* mean, so it's clear and my princess self don't get all me me me knickers wedged up in my crack hm?

[Julie]

Nah... I am not in the mood to play tonight.
However... If you would like me to help you pull your princess knickers out of that crack of yours -- send me a shout!
:-)

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Julie

Nah... I am not in the mood to play tonight.
However... If you would like me to help you pull your princess knickers out of that crack of yours -- send me a shout!
:-)

well... that's ok too. you aren't interested in the dialogue. no one has to be. Im sure you have more important things to do. My neurology isn't really getting done as I tippy tap away here.

you could help me by tying some floss to the drive-by-comment to the gusset, on your way past, in future.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

well... that's ok too. you aren't interested in the dialogue. no one has to be. Im sure you have more important things to do. My neurology isn't really getting done as I tippy tap away here.

you could help me by tying some floss to the drive-by-comment to the gusset, on your way past, in future.

Actually, I am interested in dialogue with you. I am rather intrigued by your mind and how you formulate your thoughts.

And... I had to have the aussie translate your last paragraph for me. And you are right, I am not following through and my intention was not for a drive by. I just don't have the energy tonight or brain power and will be happy to continue this with you when I do. And I say that with the utmost respect. Seriously.

[imperfect_cupcake]

LOL no worries. I'm glad you can be fine with a bit of ribbing.

form my thoughts?? that's a compliment. I find they leave my head faster than they set. I need to express as I think. My flatmate hates me

Have a restful eve.

[Ginger]

Hi, Julie, yeah I was referring to your post because it's the only one so far that judged (yes, judged), the thread to be trivial. Scout

[Julie]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Hi, Julie, yeah I was referring to your post because it's the only one so far that judged (yes, judged), the thread to be trivial. Scout

I really really wanted to get off this box, but could not bypass your post.

This is what I said (and I quote me).

"I do not care about the personal choices people make when it comes to such matters as trivial as this, in the scheme of things. And I certainly am not going to shame another for taking her butches name. If this makes her happy and them happy. Then I say - MAZEL TOV! We should be congratulating the couple on their marriage and not shaming them."

In the scheme of things. There are a LOT of really viable and important happenings in the world, and this was a ME ME ME statement. I think in the scheme of things, it is trivial. That does not mean I am trivializing the choices people make.

Now I will go to my couch!

[Gemme]

At this point, I am unlikely to change my name. It's a name I choose to keep due to the connection between it, myself and a wonderful woman who is no longer on this Earth. Plus, it sounds good.

With my first marriage, it was an automatic move...not even a decision or choice, really. As previously mentioned, it's something that was 'expected' of me and I was young and naive and hadn't fully formed my backbone or world view. Now, some very important, lifelong documents have that name on it. Stuff I can't change. So, I truly regret giving in to that expectation.

[bright_arrow]

I feel like we are looking for a statement that answers it all, which is impossible of course because there are people who have/gave a multitude of different answers.

We've looked at the history of marriage, we've talked about it as an ownership vs a mutual commitment (and cases where it's been one in the same), both butches and femmes have spoken as to why they would change/wouldn't change/would consider it, we've mentioned other contributing factors where their name has meaning to them such as being the only one with it/ it being unique in itself/ etc. We have mentioned it as something we were conditioned to think we had to do. We have talked about the butch = masculine/dominant role and femme = feminine/submissive role, though we didn't talk about if the femme was in a dominant role and what her view on it (I know someone mentioned "Jane and Jane's boi" but I do not see it in the posts below my response here so I do not remember who said it, I'm sorry). I know we mentioned how cis-men rarely take their wife's name but alas we have no cis-men in here whose brain to pick.

I personally can not see another way to pick it apart or find other answers to give.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by desd

I feel like we are looking for a statement that answers it all, which is impossible of course because there are people who have/gave a multitude of different answers.

We've looked at the history of marriage, we've talked about it as an ownership vs a mutual commitment (and cases where it's been one in the same), both butches and femmes have spoken as to why they would change/wouldn't change/would consider it, we've mentioned other contributing factors where their name has meaning to them such as being the only one with it/ it being unique in itself/ etc. We have mentioned it as something we were conditioned to think we had to do. We have talked about the butch = masculine/dominant role and femme = feminine/submissive role, though we didn't talk about if the femme was in a dominant role and what her view on it (I know someone mentioned "Jane and Jane's boi" but I do not see it in the posts below my response here so I do not remember who said it, I'm sorry). I know we mentioned how cis-men rarely take their wife's name but alas we have no cis-men in here whose brain to pick.

I personally can not see another way to pick it apart or find other answers to give.

because we are looking at it from an individual point of view. not a systemic.

Like for instance... I always assumed I would be the one to give up my name IF I got married. but I didn't "believe" in marriage till I was about 35.
I didn't even *consider* that someone would *want* to take my name.

that's a systemic issue. And I know more than just me had that.

[bright_arrow]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

because we are looking at it from an individual point of view. not a systemic.

Like for instance... I always assumed I would be the one to give up my name IF I got married. but I didn't "believe" in marriage till I was about 35.
I didn't even *consider* that someone would *want* to take my name.

that's a systemic issue. And I know more than just me had that.

I never thought I would get married/be good enough for someone to be 'worthy' or marriage or have children.. so, I never gave thought to my name. When I decided I would take Bard's, my family (particularly my dad) kind of went up in arms about it - they assumed, I guess, I would keep mine. However, we both know had it been to a cis-man, it wouldn't have been
questioned.

My friends/co-workers though automatically assumed that is just what I would do. I defer often to my wife, but as much as I try to 'give the reins' over, sometimes I have to make the decisions!

[princessbelle]

IMO....It's just personal preference like so many, many choices we make in life. I am well aware that there is the hetero-stereotypical thought that when a woman marries a man they change their name. I've done it. Which may appear to cross over a little (?) into the butch femme dynamic.

But. Being gay, the ballgame changes for a lot if not most of us. I also believe most of us try to steer away from the hetero-norm. However, at the same time, i'm a firm believer that you shouldn't steer away from everything that "appears" hetero-norm just for the appearance of doing so while cheating yourself out of your true choices for life.

For example, i've posted a lot about taking the "woman's" hetero-norm role in a relationship when partnered with a butch. I truly went through a long time of feeling guilty about that. Like i was being a bad gay person by taking this sometimes "assumed" role in life for my ID. I don't feel that way anymore. I'm not going to cheat myself out of what i desire just to keep someone from telling me "i shouldn't do that because it is too hetero-norm". What i do in my relationship is my choice. That in itself is the key diff between gay and straight relationships, most of the time anyway.

If i ever get married again and my partner asks me to take their name, i may but not because it is expected. I would do it because i WANT to do it. And while i'm thinking about it, it would be done with a lot more intention and deeper meaning since it is a choice. That is a huge difference, than changing it because it is expected in a hetero relationship. Would i ask someone to take mine? Maybe, again it would be my choice to.

That, to me, is the key difference with lesbians/gay/queer. We get to where we do what we want to do. It's a freedom that a lot of heterosexual people don't really have.

I think it boils down to doing what you and your partner want to do and not worrying about it appearing hetero-norm or not. *We* don't have to do the exact opposite of what the hetero-norm is, anymore than we have to do the exact same.

Hope that made sense. Been a long day.

[macele]

That, to me, is the key difference with lesbians/gay/queer. We get to where we do what we want to do. It's a freedom that a lot of heterosexual people don't really have.

I think it boils down to doing what you and your partner want to do and not worrying about it appearing hetero-norm or not. *We* don't have to do the exact opposite of what the hetero-norm is, anymore than we have to do the exact same.

--princessbelle



princessbelle, great post.

freedom is the key. whatever i do in life, all areas, i'd like for it to be natural. the freedom to be me. just let it happen. and keep my last name while doing it lol.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Ok great. I agree. lots of things are different or the same but for different reasons.

But here are questions for people to answer:

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?

I know we are all super special and out moms love us and we all have the bestust of all intenstions and no one is a bad person. K? Soooo I'm asking people to hypothsise about community and culture and background and history. big picture. not individuals.

[girl_dee]

What immediately comes to mind is that in the beginning the men made the rules and it was decided that she would drop her name and use his. This would become the family name.

Given that women could not vote, work, drive or have an opinion about much that this was part of the rules and fell into that lump of stuff we were expected to do.

Butch femme is usually a masculine/feminine balance which does mimic hetero couples, and for us, being given the same rights as married folk, like being able to legally change our name in gay marriage is a right we jumped on.

i think we have adopted so many traditions of straight folks because that is what we know, i don't imagine many of us were raised by lesbians, or gay men. i think as time goes on we will right our own set of rules based on our own ideals and whatever the hell we want to do. Also there is not a damn thing wrong with adopting any tradition if that is what you want to do. But there ARE options.

Not taking the male/masculine/butch name in marriage is idea many have never even thought of, it's just expected. At one time women probably thought they would never get the right to vote, or opt for divorce, etc.

Again, i think it's lovely that some cherish this tradition.

[Loren_Q]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?

In North America, the social/cultural norm is for the woman to take the man's name in marriage.

Those mores/norms are embedded to some degree in all of us. I beleive each of us carries the social/cultural norms we were raised with whether or not we like them and whether or not we even know it.

The name taking norm is slowly changing, but the ratio by far is still the woman taking the man's name.

I don't think this is limited to B/F relationships. What I see is the dominant partner's name becomes the family name. When the dominant partner is femme, it can raise eyebrows, but not really.

This leads to the other cultural/societal norm that butch=dominant partner... And that's a whole other thread.

FTR I know many Femme-led relationships, but the question is broader than my personal circle of friends.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?

Because the butch is seen as the masculine partner and since the US, although noted as a bilineal society, uses patrilineal naming, it stands to reason that many b/f marriages would uphold this tradition. There is a powerful pull toward reproducing tradition. And both traditionally and symbolically gender plays a key role in marriage. One of the most important symbolic gesture regarding gender is the deference of the female to the male. That is sometimes duplicated in varying degrees in b/f culture. People involved in making these symbolic choices, such as taking the butches surname, often have a variety of explanations for the same choice. This variety of reasons for the same option is normally seen when personal choices have internal and subconscious meanings. Again considering the power of patriarchal tradition this is no surprise.

Interesting to note that despite the past many Americans support patrilineal naming. Also surprising is a study that supposedly shows 50% of Americans saying they would support a law requiring a woman to take a man’s name when marrying. This is particularly disturbing since breaking free of the doctrine of coverture was such an uphill battle and it was only in the 70’s that women began to win the right to use their own name to get credit instead of only their husbands. But again tradition is deeply rooted and difficult to buck. There is a sense of community and belonging associated with participating in traditional rituals. Butch/femme couples are certainly not immune to this desire. But just because people have a desire to be a part of something it doesn't mean their brains fall out. This is why it is important for these people to find reasons for doing something that breaks away from the symbolic meaning behind the choice. People have a need to ignore cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance easily explains the lack of interest in examining uncomfortable and opposing beliefs. It’s stressful. "I believe that women and men are equal." "I believe that butches are not men." "I believe that butches and femmes do not engage in heteronormative behavior." Etc... Strong personal beliefs such as this coupled with choices in direct conflict with those beliefs create cognitive dissonance. Who wants to deal with that?
I think this is what makes many people cover their ears and go "LALALALALA."

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

This is why it is important for these people to find reasons for doing something that breaks away from the symbolic meaning behind the choice. People have a need to ignore cognitive dissonance.

I wanted to explain this more fully. Because when I reread it, it sounds like I'm advocating that people find reasons to do something that breaks away from the symbolic meaning. That is not the case at all. I am not personally advising that this is important. What I am saying is that people have a need to do that to ensure that there is consonance between what they believe and their actions. That is what is often behind a group of people making the same personal choice but instead of having the expected or typically understood reason for doing so they each have different reasons for making the same choice.

It is also why people often hate being asked to explain and examine their beliefs or the process by which they have reached their opinions. It is why we find people, who are on a discussion board where the purpose, one could not be faulted for believing, is to actually have discussions, angered by being asked to discuss. Questions that ask people to challenge their beliefs are difficult. It is the reason we hear so many people say it’s just my opinion and I’m entitled to it. I don’t have to explain myself. Which effectively cuts off any chance for discussion. This desire to shut down the other person, or shut up oneself, increases dramatically when someone is being asked to look at how they are holding conflicting beliefs, ideas, opinions, etc. It is uncomfortable to do this so people look for a way to achieve harmony between opinions or actions. It requires a good deal of mental and emotional gymnastics at times to achieve consonance, but discomfort increases this type of athletic prowess exponentially.

I'm not talking about anyone in particular or even about this thread specifically, although focusing on honeybarbara's questions brought this stuff up for me. I know it is not an answer to her questions, it's more why there is not likely to be satisfactory answers to her questions. To lots of questions.