The RuPaul Drag T*Word Controversy

[stargazingboi]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

So if someone is bigendered and not transsexual, they aren't transgendered? I thought transgendered was all kinds of rainbow. Has the meaning changed again? The "drag queens" I knew all considered themselves bigendered. Having two genders that don't display as congruent to their societal norm sex.
This is not transgendered anymore? Is transexual the only transgendered meaning in the US?

No Honeybarbara, I'm here in the US and tend to follow the medical definition of the word. I do this mainly because of my vocational back ground and the fact I, myself, happen to be TG. That being said...and as we have witnessed on this site, there are many interpretations of words.


Webster Dictionary - Medical terminology

Transgender - of, relating to, or being a person who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth

Transexual - A person who strongly identifies with the opposite gender and who chooses to live as a member of the opposite gender or to become one by surgery.


So, when I think about it a transexual fall under both terms, but a person who is TG does not always fall under the term transexual. Now, when looking at the definition of Drag Queen ...it does not fall under either term listed above. A Drag Queen or Drag King is a person that dresses as the opposite sex for entertainment


Now regarding the actual subject at hand...I am still unsure how I want to word my feelings about the subject and will return to express it later.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I know people in the uk who both ID as a drag queen and a drag king and it it part of their bigenderism. And although some of them perform, they'd be pretty suprised to find out that one of their genders is only for entertainment value.

I don't agree with that, even slightly. But I don't understand a lot of labeling in the US...

To me tg is not ts. Two different things. But they seem to have both become tg in mainstream press.

And even that definition from Miriam Webster screws up sex and gender.

[stargazingboi]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

And even that definition from Miriam Webster screws up sex and gender.

very true the Webster Dictionary is not fool proof because it is written by humans, but its a guideline.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I know people in the uk who both ID as a drag queen and a drag king and it it part of their bigenderism. And although some of them perform, they'd be pretty suprised to find out that one of their genders is only for entertainment value.

I don't agree with that, even slightly. But I don't understand a lot of labeling in the US...

To me tg is not ts. Two different things. But they seem to have both become tg in mainstream press.

And even that definition from Miriam Webster screws up sex and gender.

That's ironic. This may be one way in which the UK is more gender-struck than we are. Usually, it goes the other way.

I have known a lot of gay male drag queens who never questioned their (cis)gender. I don't think that makes their drag persona just for entertainment value. They may identify strongly with it and still feel like cismen. Think of all the men over the decades who strongly identified with opera divas. Some may have been transgender. But most, I imagine, were not. There are many ways to be a man. I don't know. Maybe it's my age. But I have known very few gay men (not trans gay men) who ever ID'd as transgender.

Even if you look at all gender as a performance, even if you look at a drag queen and a transwoman standing side by side and see little difference in their outward presentation, they are different, very different. (I know that some transwomen DO do drag.) But drag is, well, different. I am sure you have seen as much drag as I have. But it's nothing like the way a transwoman presents in her daily life, IMO.

Some drag queens will have a moment in their performance when they drop their voice or do some physical gesture that reveals their masculine identity (sometimes a gesture toward the crotch to remind you there is a little something extra there). I guess it's to remind you that it IS drag. It's usually a delightful moment. Drag is so different from cross-dressing -- not a fetish -- and from being trans. There is a lot of hostility for drag queens from some transwomen. The "I am NOT a drag queen" thing. And they aren't. They aren't in drag.

I love drag. I think most drag queens are proud of being drag queens and also proud of being men.

There are clearly a lot more trans and transgender folk among drag kings.

[candy_coated_bitch]

I have known a lot of drag queens that DO identify as gender variant in some way. I think it's presumptuous to say that most drag queens are really just cis men in women's clothing and completely unrelated to trans women. (Not that anyone used those exact words, it's just my reaction.) I am not trying to say that the two are the SAME--but why do trans women have more of a right to name themselves tranny than a drag queen? I consider that historically drag queens have been pioneers in the LGBTQ rights movement from Stonewall on--and a huge part of that has been BECAUSE of blurring the lines of gender. Yes, there is a performance aspect of it--but not always.

I think trans________, however you may or may not end that word, is a wide and diverse group of people. Tranny has long been used before the word and concept of transgender as we know it now even existed. In my opinion, it has as much history and importance of reclamation as queer, dyke, faggot (and no I also do not agree that that is an off limits word as well), bitch, cunt, nigger, and so on and so forth. I think the reclaiming of language is important and powerful. It can be a liberating and powerful experience.

Also--how the fuck do we know how Ru Paul feels about his/her gender and what pronouns he/she may or may not use? To put the label of cis man on him BECAUSE he is a drag queen seems questionable to me. Ru Paul hasn't said much on the issue, but what I did read when he finally came out and addressed the issue was "fuck anybody who wants to police my language". Amen to that, I say. Just because a person spends SOME time living and identifying as a man I don't think it negates the time they spend living, identifying, performing, and embodying another gender if that is meaningful to them. I don't know specifically what Ru Paul's gendered experiences are but I am not going to make a judgment about what words are appropriate for him to use. I think drag queens absolutely can fall into the trans* and gender variant experience.

I use the word tranny. Not always, not with all people--but I do have trans friends I use it with. Just like I have gay friends I use the word fag with. On trans pride day we wish each other "Happy tranny day!"

I have been following the discussion online and I find it extremely ironic that the loudest voices in opposition to the use of the word tranny are cis folks. Not folks from the drag community, not trans women--CIS FOLKS. Things that make you go hmmm.

This is one really good viedo I liked on the pro tranny side, or at least one that allows for that view:

[candy_coated_bitch]

God damn my inability to post a YouTube video, if someone wants to PM me and help, I will post it.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

I have known a lot of drag queens that DO identify as gender variant in some way. I think it's presumptuous to say that most drag queens are really just cis men in women's clothing and completely unrelated to trans women. (Not that anyone used those exact words, it's just my reaction.)

I didn't use those words, but I did say something like that. I did qualify it by the people *I* have known. I do think there are a lot of drag queens who are pretty uncomplicatedly cis. It's been my experience. I am not sure what's presumptuous about saying that.

[Liam]

I don't use the term, and I would not like it, if someone called me that.

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by Martina

I didn't use those words, but I did say something like that. I did qualify it by the people *I* have known. I do think there are a lot of drag queens who are pretty uncomplicatedly cis. It's been my experience. I am not sure what's presumptuous about saying that.

I know you didn't exactly say that, which is why I clarified it was just my reaction. I think what *IS* presumptuous is assuming how any drag queen may or may not identify without knowing. And it doesn't seem as though that is what you are saying. But really--just my sense on a larger level is we are all having a discussion about someone's gender identity or lack thereof without full knowledge of how they feel about themselves--and by extension what right they have to use a particular word. That feels icky to me.

[Corkey]

I am Transgender, I do not use the word, nor do I think it is an acceptable word to use. RuPaul's gender aside it is offensive because Transgender people say it is. If one wants to reclaim the word for themselves that is the prerogative of the person who claims Transgender.
I do think it was done to other people, and so far I have not heard an apology from either the network or RuPaul. If said apology has happened and I missed it, well I missed it.

[Martina]

I totally go by what other people tell me they ID as.

People often think about gender in one of two ways. They either see a spectrum with lots of little points along it, and each of these is a gender, almost separate from the others. (I am wildly oversimplifying.) But basically, they understand that once someone has struggled with gender a certain amount, they are probably tg or genderqueer or gender variant or something like that.

OR, people can understand that there may be just a few genders, each rather elastic, each able to manifest in many different forms.

Either approach is liberating, and I respect any individual's conclusions about gender. (Of course.) BUT, I am more in the second camp. I do not love the list-of-qualifiers way of naming gender. I prefer expanding a few categories. I personally find that a lot more liberating than the string of qualifiers approach. I am not sure that the lived reality is much different for most non-trans folk. I know the string of qualifiers works for some, but I groove on subverting the big categories and stretching them till they scream.

So that may pre-dispose me to not assuming TG. It does not pre-dispose me to making normative assumptions.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

Also--how the fuck do we know . . . what pronouns he/she may or may not use?

Ru has specifically said that she is fine with either pronoun. I don't know that that means a thing, but that's what she has said.