Lesbian Couple "Looks into Transgender" as a Loophole to Get Married

DapperButch · 07-22-2014, 10:59 PM

Well, well, well. Interesting stuff.

This is copied/pasted from susans.org, a very respected site for up to date, correct information on trans laws.

California (Update 2013)

California will change both name and sex, and will issue a new birth certificate rather than amend the old one. California Health and Safety Code, Section 103425-103445, states: "A petition for the issuance of a new birth certificate in those cases shall be filed with the superior court of the county where the petitioner resides."

The State Office of Vital Records has provided this link to assist with changing gender (or gender and name). As of 2011, you no longer need to have surgery to change your California birth record. To obtain the court order for the gender change, have your doctor fill out an affidavit telling the court that you have undergone clinically appropriate treatment for change of gender.

http://www.drbecky.com/birthcert.html

Did I call bullshit? Indeed I believe I did. This is saying that as of 2011 all you had to do is say that you have "undergone clinically appropriate treatment for change of gender", in order to get a new birth certificate with a male gender marker. Guess what that means? That can be as simple as meeting with a licensed therapist ONE TIME and them writing a two sentence letter saying yeah, this person identifies as the other sex and is in their "right mind" (meaning they are not psychotic). That's it. So, bottom line, Jacki didn't need top surgery to marry her partner, she only needed this letter from a therapist, go to court, and get her birth certificate amended to say she is male. THAT"S IT! No surgery. No nothing. It is not like the "old days". Times have changed and states require/don't require different things.

Really, the "work" she had to do was get the letter for top surgery and then go through the pain of recovery. This was just for fun you see, as it had nothing to do with marrying her partner. In order to get this, there is also a good chance she had to sign paperwork for her surgeon saying that she identified as male and was changing her sex. Interesting, huh?

Here's the thing for me...which yeah, I know I have reiterated more than once in this thread. I don't give a fuck if you take male hormones (testosterone), get male chest reconstruction, or get surgery for a man made penis, and still identify as a female. Some FTMs don't do anything to their bodies and they are no less of a man than any other man. Why can't a female create a "male body" and still define as a "woman"? It's certainly not my business.

But, don't fucking lie to us and say you did the top surgery so that you could marry a female. I am pretty fucking confident that you would have bothered to check the law that changed back in 2011 before getting married in 2013.

Anyway, I am exhausted and it is 2 hours past my bed time or I would express why this is so bothersome to me. I believe that the choice to publicize this does hurt the gay community and the trans community. No doubt, in a very small way and with a small population, but I am disappointed. Maybe what really triggers me is that Jacki appears to have presented as butch all of these years. Since I am butch (and many butches identify as women, who I regard as part of my butch community), it ignites my irritation and causes disappoint. Since I am trans masculine, it does the same thing, but for other reasons. BUT, I know that the biggest frustration for me is the bullshit factor. Don't bullshit us. And don't publicize wrong information for the 100s of trans people out there in CA who think they have to have expensive and perhaps even unwanted surgery, in order to change their birth certificate in order to marry their female partner. That sucks.

P.S. As an aside, the 2013 change is noting the rule change that the person can get a NEW birth certificate, rather than just amending their old one, has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I just wanted to include the entire quote posted at Susan's.

imperfect_cupcake · 07-23-2014, 12:16 AM

This:

Here's the thing for me...which yeah, I know I have reiterated more than once in this thread. I don't give a fuck if you take male hormones (testosterone), get male chest reconstruction, or get surgery for a man made penis, and still identify as a female. Some FTMs don't do anything to their bodies and they are no less of a man than any other man. Why can't a female create a "male body" and still define as a "woman"? It's certainly not my business.

Thank you. I have been utterly baffled by responses. And I see no reason why someone can't ID as BOTH or NEITHER.

BullDog · 07-23-2014, 05:55 AM

She felt she needed to be male to get legally married, she may have had to say she felt male to get chest surgery- I don't know about the latter. Separate things or aligned? Who knows. I doubt she had chest surgery "for fun." I am not sure that automatically means she was lying or had ill intent. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. From the small clip I saw she didn't appear to know much about the process of transition, especially when she said she looked into transgender. She just doesn't sound knowledgeable to me. I see a lot of assumptions being made about her that may or may not be true.

If the process of getting your sex changed is easier these days, that's great news. Transsexed individuals are the ones who will benefit.

So I guess if I ever have the money to have chest surgery and need to say I feel I am male in order to get it, I will just not discuss my experience with other queers. The binary is certainly alive and well.

DapperButch · 07-23-2014, 04:24 PM

I posted something and then deleted it. I thought what would remain was my reason for deletion which was: "I broke my cardinal rule of not engaging on heated topics". Anyway, that didn't post, so I am posting this to acknowledge my deleting of a post.

Girl_On_Fire · 07-23-2014, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

She just doesn't sound knowledgeable to me.

This was the thing that got me too. She actually seemed pretty clueless about the whole thing. I can't image if that laws are as they are that she felt she had to have the surgery. I'm sure there's a lot more to the story, which is unfortunate, because the way it was presented was potentially-harmful to the community at large.

BullDog · 07-24-2014, 04:48 AM

Yes the news story made it sound like she had to chop off her breasts to become male to get married. I doubt that's the real story.

She very well may have wanted to have chest surgery- whether she was getting married or not- and that may or may not indicate feeling she is male/transgender/transsexed.

I am a butch woman and have no feelings of being transsexed or transgendered or male and I really, really want to have chest surgery. Yesterday I was trying on shirts and hated how my chest area looked. No it is not the same thing as being born into the wrong body or being assigned the wrong sex at birth. But it is body dysmorphia for me and my body does not all line up with my gender or sexuality as a stone butch. My discomfort level is getting worse. I don't know if it is getting older, gaining weight and other personal issues I have been dealing with, but it is getting worse. I really need to start that piggy bank for surgery. If I ever do undergo that process, I will be navigating a system not really set up for someone like me, so I will just have to do the best I can and hopefully I won't have to lie about anything. I really don't know.

So I when I read some of the comments here or at Huffington Post or Gawker or other places it feels crappy. My situation is not exactly the same, but in some ways it does feel personal to me.

Gender, sexuality and how we feel about our bodies is not easy for any of us. For butches- most of are in the space between whether we clearly id as female/woman or male/man or not.

The laws are fucked up for transsexed/transgender people and they are for lesbians and gay men too.

Kelt · 07-24-2014, 07:09 AM

I'm glad that the laws are changing so that people getting more rights around what they can do to their bodies. It has always puzzled me as to why I can get my chest added to with just a checkbook, but having it altered the other way requires a checkbook and analysis. It seems silly to me. Any other body part I want to change? No problem! 25 years ago I had elective eye surgery, I had it done in another country because they were much more experienced, but still, just a check, no question as to my sanity.

As for having top surgery without having a specific "male" transition in mind, this is changing quickly. I belong to another forum (not BF oriented) that has people of every conceivable stripe, and there is a lot of interest in top surgery for cis women and many other variations on gender, gender queers who just want to be non-gendered, and third gendered persons.

The requirements are ridiculous and are changing although not quickly enough. In my opinion this should be like any other elective surgery, a personal decision for personal reasons.

EnderD_503 · 07-24-2014, 05:49 PM

The surgeon I went to here will operate on people who identify as gender queer/gender neutral, butch etc. Psychiatrists are becoming more accepting when it comes to approving people who identify as the above for top surgery as well...but just like with trans guys there are similar hurdles to jump as far as needing to convince them that you identify the way you do, that surgery is a big enough "need"(

) and the usual.

07-22-2014, 10:59 PM	#1
DapperButch Roadster Guy How Do You Identify?: FTM, Stone Butch Preferred Pronoun?: He Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northeast Posts: 7,745 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 26,545 Thanked 26,809 Times in 5,771 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	Well, well, well. Interesting stuff. This is copied/pasted from susans.org, a very respected site for up to date, correct information on trans laws. California (Update 2013) California will change both name and sex, and will issue a new birth certificate rather than amend the old one. California Health and Safety Code, Section 103425-103445, states: "A petition for the issuance of a new birth certificate in those cases shall be filed with the superior court of the county where the petitioner resides." The State Office of Vital Records has provided this link to assist with changing gender (or gender and name). As of 2011, you no longer need to have surgery to change your California birth record. To obtain the court order for the gender change, have your doctor fill out an affidavit telling the court that you have undergone clinically appropriate treatment for change of gender. http://www.drbecky.com/birthcert.html Did I call bullshit? Indeed I believe I did. This is saying that as of 2011 all you had to do is say that you have "undergone clinically appropriate treatment for change of gender", in order to get a new birth certificate with a male gender marker. Guess what that means? That can be as simple as meeting with a licensed therapist ONE TIME and them writing a two sentence letter saying yeah, this person identifies as the other sex and is in their "right mind" (meaning they are not psychotic). That's it. So, bottom line, Jacki didn't need top surgery to marry her partner, she only needed this letter from a therapist, go to court, and get her birth certificate amended to say she is male. THAT"S IT! No surgery. No nothing. It is not like the "old days". Times have changed and states require/don't require different things. Really, the "work" she had to do was get the letter for top surgery and then go through the pain of recovery. This was just for fun you see, as it had nothing to do with marrying her partner. In order to get this, there is also a good chance she had to sign paperwork for her surgeon saying that she identified as male and was changing her sex. Interesting, huh? Here's the thing for me...which yeah, I know I have reiterated more than once in this thread. I don't give a fuck if you take male hormones (testosterone), get male chest reconstruction, or get surgery for a man made penis, and still identify as a female. Some FTMs don't do anything to their bodies and they are no less of a man than any other man. Why can't a female create a "male body" and still define as a "woman"? It's certainly not my business. But, don't fucking lie to us and say you did the top surgery so that you could marry a female. I am pretty fucking confident that you would have bothered to check the law that changed back in 2011 before getting married in 2013. Anyway, I am exhausted and it is 2 hours past my bed time or I would express why this is so bothersome to me. I believe that the choice to publicize this does hurt the gay community and the trans community. No doubt, in a very small way and with a small population, but I am disappointed. Maybe what really triggers me is that Jacki appears to have presented as butch all of these years. Since I am butch (and many butches identify as women, who I regard as part of my butch community), it ignites my irritation and causes disappoint. Since I am trans masculine, it does the same thing, but for other reasons. BUT, I know that the biggest frustration for me is the bullshit factor. Don't bullshit us. And don't publicize wrong information for the 100s of trans people out there in CA who think they have to have expensive and perhaps even unwanted surgery, in order to change their birth certificate in order to marry their female partner. That sucks. P.S. As an aside, the 2013 change is noting the rule change that the person can get a NEW birth certificate, rather than just amending their old one, has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I just wanted to include the entire quote posted at Susan's. __________________ -Dapper Are you educated or indoctrinated?

07-23-2014, 12:16 AM	#2
imperfect_cupcake Senior Member How Do You Identify?: feminine dolly dyke Preferred Pronoun?: Your Grace Relationship Status: I put my own care first Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In a gauze of mystery Posts: 1,776 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,426 Thanked 9,712 Times in 1,611 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	This: Here's the thing for me...which yeah, I know I have reiterated more than once in this thread. I don't give a fuck if you take male hormones (testosterone), get male chest reconstruction, or get surgery for a man made penis, and still identify as a female. Some FTMs don't do anything to their bodies and they are no less of a man than any other man. Why can't a female create a "male body" and still define as a "woman"? It's certainly not my business. Thank you. I have been utterly baffled by responses. And I see no reason why someone can't ID as BOTH or NEITHER. Last edited by imperfect_cupcake; 07-23-2014 at 12:19 AM.

07-23-2014, 05:55 AM	#3
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,640 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	She felt she needed to be male to get legally married, she may have had to say she felt male to get chest surgery- I don't know about the latter. Separate things or aligned? Who knows. I doubt she had chest surgery "for fun." I am not sure that automatically means she was lying or had ill intent. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. From the small clip I saw she didn't appear to know much about the process of transition, especially when she said she looked into transgender. She just doesn't sound knowledgeable to me. I see a lot of assumptions being made about her that may or may not be true. If the process of getting your sex changed is easier these days, that's great news. Transsexed individuals are the ones who will benefit. So I guess if I ever have the money to have chest surgery and need to say I feel I am male in order to get it, I will just not discuss my experience with other queers. The binary is certainly alive and well. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

07-23-2014, 04:24 PM	#4
DapperButch Roadster Guy How Do You Identify?: FTM, Stone Butch Preferred Pronoun?: He Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northeast Posts: 7,745 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 26,545 Thanked 26,809 Times in 5,771 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	I posted something and then deleted it. I thought what would remain was my reason for deletion which was: "I broke my cardinal rule of not engaging on heated topics". Anyway, that didn't post, so I am posting this to acknowledge my deleting of a post. __________________ -Dapper Are you educated or indoctrinated?

07-24-2014, 04:48 AM	#6
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,640 Times in 4,463 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	Yes the news story made it sound like she had to chop off her breasts to become male to get married. I doubt that's the real story. She very well may have wanted to have chest surgery- whether she was getting married or not- and that may or may not indicate feeling she is male/transgender/transsexed. I am a butch woman and have no feelings of being transsexed or transgendered or male and I really, really want to have chest surgery. Yesterday I was trying on shirts and hated how my chest area looked. No it is not the same thing as being born into the wrong body or being assigned the wrong sex at birth. But it is body dysmorphia for me and my body does not all line up with my gender or sexuality as a stone butch. My discomfort level is getting worse. I don't know if it is getting older, gaining weight and other personal issues I have been dealing with, but it is getting worse. I really need to start that piggy bank for surgery. If I ever do undergo that process, I will be navigating a system not really set up for someone like me, so I will just have to do the best I can and hopefully I won't have to lie about anything. I really don't know. So I when I read some of the comments here or at Huffington Post or Gawker or other places it feels crappy. My situation is not exactly the same, but in some ways it does feel personal to me. Gender, sexuality and how we feel about our bodies is not easy for any of us. For butches- most of are in the space between whether we clearly id as female/woman or male/man or not. The laws are fucked up for transsexed/transgender people and they are for lesbians and gay men too. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

07-24-2014, 07:09 AM	#7
Kelt Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Beach Butch Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: SoCal Posts: 2,751 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 19,765 Thanked 15,279 Times in 2,538 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	I'm glad that the laws are changing so that people getting more rights around what they can do to their bodies. It has always puzzled me as to why I can get my chest added to with just a checkbook, but having it altered the other way requires a checkbook and analysis. It seems silly to me. Any other body part I want to change? No problem! 25 years ago I had elective eye surgery, I had it done in another country because they were much more experienced, but still, just a check, no question as to my sanity. As for having top surgery without having a specific "male" transition in mind, this is changing quickly. I belong to another forum (not BF oriented) that has people of every conceivable stripe, and there is a lot of interest in top surgery for cis women and many other variations on gender, gender queers who just want to be non-gendered, and third gendered persons. The requirements are ridiculous and are changing although not quickly enough. In my opinion this should be like any other elective surgery, a personal decision for personal reasons.

07-24-2014, 05:49 PM	#8
EnderD_503 Member How Do You Identify?: Queer, trans guy, butch Preferred Pronoun?: Male pronouns Relationship Status: Relationship Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 1,329 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,090 Thanked 3,878 Times in 1,022 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	The surgeon I went to here will operate on people who identify as gender queer/gender neutral, butch etc. Psychiatrists are becoming more accepting when it comes to approving people who identify as the above for top surgery as well...but just like with trans guys there are similar hurdles to jump as far as needing to convince them that you identify the way you do, that surgery is a big enough "need"( ) and the usual.