Transgender Professional Athletes

[Allison W]

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

There's also a LOT of variation within both groups--cismen and ciswomen. And a lot of overlap. Plenty of cismen have low levels of testosterone and plenty of ciswomen have higher levels of testosterone than some cismen. There's a lot more overlap than you might think. Also in size and body type, etc. Most professional women athletes could leave 99% of cismen in the dust.

Not a lot of overlap in actual testosterone levels per se, outside of cases where someone's gonads have been removed or the like, but the rest, yes.

(Off-topic: I like the bit about most professional women athletes outperforming the vast majority of cisgendered men. Male-supremacist types really rage over that. As an added bonus, the performance gap between men and women even at the athlete level has been shrinking over the years. The future is bright.)

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

I think it's complicated when you start talking about hormone levels and such things. There's not a great way to measure that. But, with that being said if a person has transitioned I think the fairest thing is for them to compete under their chosen gender. All the policing gets insane after a while.

Well, hormones can be measured with a blood test; I've had doctors do it. The ranges vary greatly within a given sex, but between them the difference is still pretty big. I wouldn't draw the line at "chosen gender," even as a transperson, but rather by the presence of what is probably the biggest sex-linked advantage, testosterone, and whether they're on it (for transmen) or no longer producing it in quantities abnormally high for a female athlete (for transwomen--and I think the "for a female athlete" is probably a meaningful qualifier, as it's not unusual for female athletes to have relatively high testosterone levels). Possibly even with an additional time qualifier, like two or three years of hormonal intervention, since it takes a while.

On transwomen's T levels, though, the recommended therapeutic level of testosterone for transwomen is actually very low in the female range. I haven't even had surgical interventions, just hormonal ones, myself, and I bring this up because even so I actually had blood tests showing T levels so far below the female range--even the recommended therapeutic range for transwomen--that my antiandrogens had to be reduced to raise them.

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by Allison W

Not a lot of overlap in actual testosterone levels per se, outside of cases where someone's gonads have been removed or the like, but the rest, yes.

(Off-topic: I like the bit about most professional women athletes outperforming the vast majority of cisgendered men. Male-supremacist types really rage over that. As an added bonus, the performance gap between men and women even at the athlete level has been shrinking over the years. The future is bright.)

Well, hormones can be measured with a blood test; I've had doctors do it. The ranges vary greatly within a given sex, but between them the difference is still pretty big. I wouldn't draw the line at "chosen gender," even as a transperson, but rather by the presence of what is probably the biggest sex-linked advantage, testosterone, and whether they're on it (for transmen) or no longer producing it in quantities abnormally high for a female athlete (for transwomen--and I think the "for a female athlete" is probably a meaningful qualifier, as it's not unusual for female athletes to have relatively high testosterone levels). Possibly even with an additional time qualifier, like two or three years of hormonal intervention, since it takes a while.

On transwomen's T levels, though, the recommended therapeutic level of testosterone for transwomen is actually very low in the female range. I haven't even had surgical interventions, just hormonal ones, myself, and I bring this up because even so I actually had blood tests showing T levels so far below the female range--even the recommended therapeutic range for transwomen--that my antiandrogens had to be reduced to raise them.

I didn't mean that hormone levels can't LITERALLY be measured. I meant that trying to develop a fair and just and feasible way of judging athletes' hormone levels would be ridiculous. Plus, it's a red herring in my opinion.

As you said--the gap between women and men athletes is becoming more and more narrow anyhow. There's something more going on there besides hormones. I don't think testosterone is the only, and maybe not even the most important, factor in athletic performance. That's why I think a discussion about hormones is a red herring: because really the issue is about transphobia. That's why people freak about this--it challenges our notions of biological sex and gender on a very basic level.

Sports is one of the last bastions where complete separation of men and women is seen as not only ok, but necessary. I think treading on that blows people's minds a bit and makes them panic.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

I didn't mean that hormone levels can't LITERALLY be measured. I meant that trying to develop a fair and just and feasible way of judging athletes' hormone levels would be ridiculous. Plus, it's a red herring in my opinion.

As you said--the gap between women and men athletes is becoming more and more narrow anyhow. There's something more going on there besides hormones. I don't think testosterone is the only, and maybe not even the most important, factor in athletic performance. That's why I think a discussion about hormones is a red herring: because really the issue is about transphobia. That's why people freak about this--it challenges our notions of biological sex and gender on a very basic level.

Sports is one of the last bastions where complete separation of men and women is seen as not only ok, but necessary. I think treading on that blows people's minds a bit and makes them panic.

This years Little League, Mo'ne (sp?) would be a prime example of the change in sports.

[vagina]

So would it be ok for transwomen to enter Bodybuilding competitions?

Because Bodybuilding is judged on size of muscle and striations. Image 1 shows that women bodied individuals cannot get below 10% body fat, it is dangerous. For male bodied individuals, bodybuilders compete below 4% body fat. There is an obvious advantage, as shown by image 2, 3. There is not a single woman anywhere that can get that big.





Seriously?

[Corkey]

First off, why the hell not? Secondly they would have to work 3X as hard to get the muscle mass of their competitors, or did you conveniently forget that hormones will not help? Obviously science isn't your strong suit.Your use of photos doesn't help your cause.

[JDeere]

I know a Transman who competes with cismen in weight lifting and he works just as hard or harder to obtain the goals and his medals.

I agree with Corkey, Why the hell not?

[vagina]

What about transwomen that still have testicles and penis attached? Should they be allowed to compete in women's sports as well?

[fever]

Just reading through these posts. I am surprised you weren't warned or timed out for being blatantly rude to another member. But, maybe you were..............

Originally Posted by Corkey

First off, why the hell not? Secondly they would have to work 3X as hard to get the muscle mass of their competitors, or did you conveniently forget that hormones will not help? Obviously science isn't your strong suit.Your use of photos doesn't help your cause.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by fever

Just reading through these posts. I am surprised you weren't warned or timed out for being blatantly rude to another member. But, maybe you were..............

First off, I was coming from my me my place, secondly, how I respond to people who are Transphobic is really none of your business. Would you like a smiley with that?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by vagina

So would it be ok for transwomen to enter Bodybuilding competitions?

Because Bodybuilding is judged on size of muscle and striations. Image 1 shows that women bodied individuals cannot get below 10% body fat, it is dangerous. For male bodied individuals, bodybuilders compete below 4% body fat. There is an obvious advantage, as shown by image 2, 3. There is not a single woman anywhere that can get that big.


Seriously?

Right, which is why it would be stupid for any person who has the testosterone levels of a female (a transwoman), to compete against men. They would lose.

[Medusa]

Vagina-

In your time on this site, you have made several questionable posts regarding Transpeople and have in one case referred to top surgery as "mutilation".

We have had numerous complaints and reports about your posts and it is feeling to me like your participation in threads involving topics of Trans-anything is negative almost 100% of the time ("negative" meaning unwelcoming, suspect, or flat-out Transphobic).

I do not want the folks on this site who identify as Trans to have to wade through ugly postings about "mutilations" or non-consensual photos of pre and post Trans lives when used to demonstrate how someone "is really still a man".

From here on out, please confine your postings to threads on this site that DO NOT include discussion of Trans lives.

Thanks for your cooperation,
Mme

[Allison W]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Vagina-

In your time on this site, you have made several questionable posts regarding Transpeople and have in one case referred to top surgery as "mutilation".

I went and looked. Someone's still stuck in the "WE'RE LOSING OUR BUTCHES" (emphasis on the possessive, like she owns other people's bodies and is entitled to pass judgment on what they do with them) scare.