Transgender Professional Athletes

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by Allison W

Not a lot of overlap in actual testosterone levels per se, outside of cases where someone's gonads have been removed or the like, but the rest, yes.

(Off-topic: I like the bit about most professional women athletes outperforming the vast majority of cisgendered men. Male-supremacist types really rage over that. As an added bonus, the performance gap between men and women even at the athlete level has been shrinking over the years. The future is bright.)

Well, hormones can be measured with a blood test; I've had doctors do it. The ranges vary greatly within a given sex, but between them the difference is still pretty big. I wouldn't draw the line at "chosen gender," even as a transperson, but rather by the presence of what is probably the biggest sex-linked advantage, testosterone, and whether they're on it (for transmen) or no longer producing it in quantities abnormally high for a female athlete (for transwomen--and I think the "for a female athlete" is probably a meaningful qualifier, as it's not unusual for female athletes to have relatively high testosterone levels). Possibly even with an additional time qualifier, like two or three years of hormonal intervention, since it takes a while.

On transwomen's T levels, though, the recommended therapeutic level of testosterone for transwomen is actually very low in the female range. I haven't even had surgical interventions, just hormonal ones, myself, and I bring this up because even so I actually had blood tests showing T levels so far below the female range--even the recommended therapeutic range for transwomen--that my antiandrogens had to be reduced to raise them.

I didn't mean that hormone levels can't LITERALLY be measured. I meant that trying to develop a fair and just and feasible way of judging athletes' hormone levels would be ridiculous. Plus, it's a red herring in my opinion.

As you said--the gap between women and men athletes is becoming more and more narrow anyhow. There's something more going on there besides hormones. I don't think testosterone is the only, and maybe not even the most important, factor in athletic performance. That's why I think a discussion about hormones is a red herring: because really the issue is about transphobia. That's why people freak about this--it challenges our notions of biological sex and gender on a very basic level.

Sports is one of the last bastions where complete separation of men and women is seen as not only ok, but necessary. I think treading on that blows people's minds a bit and makes them panic.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

I didn't mean that hormone levels can't LITERALLY be measured. I meant that trying to develop a fair and just and feasible way of judging athletes' hormone levels would be ridiculous. Plus, it's a red herring in my opinion.

As you said--the gap between women and men athletes is becoming more and more narrow anyhow. There's something more going on there besides hormones. I don't think testosterone is the only, and maybe not even the most important, factor in athletic performance. That's why I think a discussion about hormones is a red herring: because really the issue is about transphobia. That's why people freak about this--it challenges our notions of biological sex and gender on a very basic level.

Sports is one of the last bastions where complete separation of men and women is seen as not only ok, but necessary. I think treading on that blows people's minds a bit and makes them panic.

This years Little League, Mo'ne (sp?) would be a prime example of the change in sports.

[vagina]

So would it be ok for transwomen to enter Bodybuilding competitions?

Because Bodybuilding is judged on size of muscle and striations. Image 1 shows that women bodied individuals cannot get below 10% body fat, it is dangerous. For male bodied individuals, bodybuilders compete below 4% body fat. There is an obvious advantage, as shown by image 2, 3. There is not a single woman anywhere that can get that big.





Seriously?

[Corkey]

First off, why the hell not? Secondly they would have to work 3X as hard to get the muscle mass of their competitors, or did you conveniently forget that hormones will not help? Obviously science isn't your strong suit.Your use of photos doesn't help your cause.

[JDeere]

I know a Transman who competes with cismen in weight lifting and he works just as hard or harder to obtain the goals and his medals.

I agree with Corkey, Why the hell not?

[vagina]

What about transwomen that still have testicles and penis attached? Should they be allowed to compete in women's sports as well?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by vagina

What about transwomen that still have testicles and penis attached? Should they be allowed to compete in women's sports as well?

Why the hell are you worried about a hypothetical? Who died and made you gender police? Trans people can do and be whoever they want and your approval is not required!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by vagina

What about transwomen that still have testicles and penis attached? Should they be allowed to compete in women's sports as well?

If they are on testosterone blockers, yes.

I am honestly wondering if you are getting the main point here? If a trans woman's testosterone levels are equal to any other females (due to castration OR testosterone blockers), then yes, they should compete with other women. If you had them compete with the men, they would do no better than any other female (natal), so it wouldn't be fair (and in the case of contact sports, like boxing, get pretty hurt. It would be no different than a natal male hitting his natal female wife).

If a female bodied person is taking testosterone to transition to male (therefore their testosterone levels are in the male testosterone range), then they should compete with the men. They should not compete with the women because they have an unfair advantage (and again, would have the strength of any man hitting a woman). But, with your argument (it is about what we have in our pants), this is what indeed would happen. Since the guy has a vagina, he should be thrown in a ring with women he can bat about. It has to go both ways. You can't just keep trans women out of women's sports, without keeping trans men IN female sports. Do you think that this is how it should go?

Instead of just putting up random pictures, how about taking any one of our arguments, quote it, and argue it? Have a conversation about it. That is the point of the message board.

[fever]

Just reading through these posts. I am surprised you weren't warned or timed out for being blatantly rude to another member. But, maybe you were..............

Originally Posted by Corkey

First off, why the hell not? Secondly they would have to work 3X as hard to get the muscle mass of their competitors, or did you conveniently forget that hormones will not help? Obviously science isn't your strong suit.Your use of photos doesn't help your cause.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by fever

Just reading through these posts. I am surprised you weren't warned or timed out for being blatantly rude to another member. But, maybe you were..............

First off, I was coming from my me my place, secondly, how I respond to people who are Transphobic is really none of your business. Would you like a smiley with that?

[nycfem]

Fever and Corkey, please take it private if you want to continue back-and-forthing, but let's get this thread back on topic: Transgender Professional Athletes. Thank you.

Jennifer (Moderator)

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by vagina

So would it be ok for transwomen to enter Bodybuilding competitions?

Because Bodybuilding is judged on size of muscle and striations. Image 1 shows that women bodied individuals cannot get below 10% body fat, it is dangerous. For male bodied individuals, bodybuilders compete below 4% body fat. There is an obvious advantage, as shown by image 2, 3. There is not a single woman anywhere that can get that big.


Seriously?

Right, which is why it would be stupid for any person who has the testosterone levels of a female (a transwoman), to compete against men. They would lose.

[Medusa]

Vagina-

In your time on this site, you have made several questionable posts regarding Transpeople and have in one case referred to top surgery as "mutilation".

We have had numerous complaints and reports about your posts and it is feeling to me like your participation in threads involving topics of Trans-anything is negative almost 100% of the time ("negative" meaning unwelcoming, suspect, or flat-out Transphobic).

I do not want the folks on this site who identify as Trans to have to wade through ugly postings about "mutilations" or non-consensual photos of pre and post Trans lives when used to demonstrate how someone "is really still a man".

From here on out, please confine your postings to threads on this site that DO NOT include discussion of Trans lives.

Thanks for your cooperation,
Mme

[Allison W]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Vagina-

In your time on this site, you have made several questionable posts regarding Transpeople and have in one case referred to top surgery as "mutilation".

I went and looked. Someone's still stuck in the "WE'RE LOSING OUR BUTCHES" (emphasis on the possessive, like she owns other people's bodies and is entitled to pass judgment on what they do with them) scare.

[JDeere]

*FACEPALM*

Shaking my head, why the hell does it matter what is between someone's legs when they are transitioning? Gender is NOT about genitals.