Obama's Health Care Overhaul: Your Opinions

[key]

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

If it weren't for the Party Of No, aka the Senate Republicans, filibustering virtually everything that has come through the Senate (they really have, go check for yourself) and refusing to sign on to absolutely anything the Obama supports, even if those same Republicans have written or sponsored the same language/ideas/concepts in the past, then we'd have real health reform. Instead, we have a few dozen people who are so hell bent on the black man in the white house failing that they will screw over this entire country and not give a rats ass.

Their latest slimy decision, buy the way, was to filibuster debate of Wall Street Reform in the Senate. They didn't filibuster a bill, they said we won't even allow this to be discussed on the floor of the Senate, in front of the American People. I officially have nothing nice to say to and/or about any Republican. The Senate Republicans are the scum of the earth, and anyone who supports them is swimming in the same scum.

I'm over it.

But to be fair most Democrats are just as slimey as the Republicans. But to be fair, at this point the only decent handful of politicians in Washington right now are in the Democratic Party (and the Independent, Democratic/Socialist Bernie Sanders).

And I agree, anyone supporting any Republican at this time in our nations history is, in my opinion, a traitor to this country and should be treated accordingly. They are dragging us back to pre-revolution days. I honestly think that is what they mean when they say they want to "take our country back". Back to when women and blacks and any other minority were simply rich white men's property.

How these rich white men are (still) convincing poor people to fight for their rights to own them is baffling, just baffling to me. But then again when the only news and information available to these poor communities is Fox "News" and Rush Limbaugh....well, it does begin to make sense. Keep the poor people afraid of the other poor people so they never band together. It has worked for generation after generation.

[casey35]

Originally Posted by key

But to be fair most Democrats are just as slimey as the Republicans. But to be fair, at this point the only decent handful of politicians in Washington right now are in the Democratic Party (and the Independent, Democratic/Socialist Bernie Sanders).

And I agree, anyone supporting any Republican at this time in our nations history is, in my opinion, a traitor to this country and should be treated accordingly. They are dragging us back to pre-revolution days. I honestly think that is what they mean when they say they want to "take our country back". Back to when women and blacks and any other minority were simply rich white men's property.

How these rich white men are (still) convincing poor people to fight for their rights to own them is baffling, just baffling to me. But then again when the only news and information available to these poor communities is Fox "News" and Rush Limbaugh....well, it does begin to make sense. Keep the poor people afraid of the other poor people so they never band together. It has worked for generation after generation.

key you are an ass hole because my family is republican, My Dad served 34 years in the military so u need to back up and get off your high horse thinking u are always right.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by casey35

key you are an ass hole because my family is republican, My Dad served 34 years in the military so u need to back up and get off your high horse thinking u are always right.

I'm sorry, what in the hell has this got to do with health care? I'm not going to report you for this out burst, I can't say the same for anyone else, but it isn't called for. If you can't debate the issues, perhaps you need to look inward as to why.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by casey35

key you are an ass hole because my family is republican, My Dad served 34 years in the military so u need to back up and get off your high horse thinking u are always right.

I am a flaming ass progressive...who voted for Reagan the first time and was a Republican.......my family on my father's side has bunches of career military........bunches of them for generations.......some of them were warriors who met the Mayflower and some of them were on the Mayflower or with the Conquistadors.............

I would suggest, as a Vietnam Era veteran, that you might need to back up yourself.

And............just to be clear...........you never actually addressed any of dreadgeek's points.......

I, for one, want to know how you think a flawed bill that addresses the payment of health care costs ....and it will benefit you regardless of what you think........is somehow going to cause you harm?

It's a shame that you refuse to access food stamps and other government programs that you actually paid for........you paid ahead for a time you (or someone else) might have a need for assistance.

Thinking you can do everything alone......well.......one day you will find out asking for help and getting it in the form of health care or food or housing or ______ is not a sin or a sign of weakness or a hand-out .........

getting food stamps or any other 'entitlement benefit' is simply a hand-up based on your previous payment of taxes into the system......by not accessing the services you have already paid for makes you a fool and hungry and bitter ...........

by the way........calling folks names to avoid answering questions or responding to thoughtful posts is childish at best..............careful how you show your own ass.......

[Corkey]

casey, there are plenty of Vets here, some of us served in various wars. My father was also a Vet and a republican, that has not a damn thing to do with this issue of health care. Like Toughy we served and are entitled to our benefits, if you'd like to put your name on the dotted line and join those of us who have served, you too can have health care, oh it's provided by the government.

If you'd like to play games with this, I'm afraid it wont serve you well.

[casey35]

This is the last i am going to reply. I am tired of people calling people unamerican if we do not feel like you or have the same opinion as you do. The reason why i call Key a bad name is because he said that republicans were unamerican. To me that was uncalled for. No one has the right to call an american citizen unamerican. So if you want to report me that fine with me.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by casey35

This is the last i am going to reply. I am tired of people calling people unamerican if we do not feel like you or have the same opinion as you do. The reason why i call Key a bad name is because he said that republicans were unamerican. To me that was uncalled for. No one has the right to call an american citizen unamerican. So if you want to report me that fine with me.

quote the post that called you or anyone else (key) unamerican and I will stand with you and denounce that kind of rhetoric.........otherwise..........you tell lies and think you can get away with it based on some victim stance.

I don't give two shits why you acted like a two year old when you called key names.........you acted like a two year old and that has no place in an articulate discussion.

That ignorant racist law passed in AZ gives the police the right to decide who they think might not be an american............goddess help all my nieces/nephews and great nephews/nieces who are brown and white if they ever cross the border from New Mexico into Arizona....that law gives some redneck AZ lawman the right to decide who they think needs papers to prove they are american...

spit..........and no fucking popcorn

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by casey35

This is the last i am going to reply. I am tired of people calling people unamerican if we do not feel like you or have the same opinion as you do. The reason why i call Key a bad name is because he said that republicans were unamerican. To me that was uncalled for. No one has the right to call an american citizen unamerican. So if you want to report me that fine with me.

You know, I can't help but notice that you focused on the post where you got butthurt and ignored the post where your position was systematically but very respectfully dismantled before your very eyes. I didn't call you un-American. I said that your position that America was "founded on self-reliance" was not even wrong. I said that you appeared to be missing the point but, again, didn't call you names. I didn't mention your family at all but demonstrated that you are not the self-made, monad that is your *self-proclaimed* image of yourself.

I also have to say that I find it the very height of irony that a Republican and conservative would be calling people out on questioning the patriotism of other Americans. You invoked your father's years of service as a rhetorical device. It's a way of saying "my family is more American than thou". Except, as Corkey pointed out, there are *at least* three veterans on this thread that I am aware of (Corkey, Toughy and myself). I have a three-generation tradition of military service in my family--three consecutive generations--and it wouldn't surprise me if one of my grand-children makes it a fourth. In fact, just in my immediate family the *only* people who have not worn the uniform are my granddaughter (who is 2), my mother and my daughter-in-law. My father, my sister, my son and I all wore the uniform of the US Army. My sister made a career out of it and my son aspires to. I would have but I was kicked out (three guesses as to why). So pulling the veteran card here is not going to help much.

Either you have an argument or you don't. If you have an argument, make your argument. I can be convinced, I'm sure that the rest of us can be convinced, so convince us. Convince us that as a matter of social contract, we should be prepared to let, for instance, people whose jobs have been moved overseas by some corporation to starve because there are people who cheat the unemployment system. Convince us that, as a matter of policy, we should let those who are disabled starve for lack of food or die for lack of medical care because they are disabled. Convince us that the newborn baby should starve or not get medical care because her mother is a 17 year old girl who made one mistake, one night and couldn't bring herself to terminate the pregnancy. Convince us that the most well-off, the strongest in society, should have no compunction about trampling on the bodies of the weakest and the poorest and that, as we grind their faces into the mud, we should be telling them that this is no more than what they deserve because they are lazy. If you are right. If your vision of society is the one that is best for society, convince me.

Convince me that America is less free because of the 40-hour work week. Convince me that America needs no public schools or libraries. Convince me that America is less productive because there are laws against child labor, because of unemployment insurance, social security insurance, Medicare. Convince me that there should be no VA because SOME veterans are strung out on drugs or drink or both.

I recognize that there are cheats in the system but I'm not prepared to burn the whole thing to the ground, penalize those who have merely fallen on hard times, to satisfy some sense of righteous indignation. But you can convince me, if you are right and you are very, very good. Go for it. That's a tall mountain to climb, you might want to bring oxygen.

Cheers
aj

[key]

How do we get through to people who refuse to debate in facts, or to even defend their opinion with any clarity. F-you is not a rebuttal founded in information. Even if their information is based on dubious sources we at least have a ground from which to discuss the matter. As far as I can see the biggest concern to Casey is that her taxes will go up. Many people have pointed out that her taxes have actually been lowered. If she recently did her taxes, surely she sees her return is larger this year.

Dreadgeek I totally appreciate all the time you took to present your case. I think what we are seeing in reaction is pretty typical for our tea party citizens and other conservatives. They do not operate from facts, only fears. So all the rational debate in the world simply will not compute for these people. I admit that my facts are peppered with emotional appeals. But even this does not seem to get through.

There must be someone among us with the NLP skills that can instruct us on how best to get through to them.

I am not anti-Republican. In my opinion Eisenhower was the last great Republican President we had. He warned us against the Military Industrial Complex, taxes on the rich (equivalent to about 3 million a year in today's dollars) were upwards of 70-90%. Heck I even praise Nixon for giving us the G-Blessed EPA! What happened to "real" conservative values. As in conserving our environment, conserving our blood and treasure, conserving our economy by not allowing any person (corporate or human) to get "too big to fail."

What to do what to do? I can't stand watching poor people defend the rights of the rich. HELP!

Actually, I just thought of something. Maybe the biggest concern to Casey (and others) is that she not be seen as "taking a hand out." There is a lot of pride/shame going on there. I am sure Casey represent many of our citizens in this regard. They don't want to associate themselves with what they perceive as weakness (the "lazy asses"). How do you convince someone with such pride/shame that getting help is not a bad thing? Again someone with NLP language skills might be able to chime in here and give us all a hand. Anyone?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by casey35

key you are an ass hole because my family is republican, My Dad served 34 years in the military so u need to back up and get off your high horse thinking u are always right.

Aside from the name calling here, you have struck yet another nerve for me and the countless members here that I know to have served in the military (I have not). And not just a few of whom had to exit due to DADT.

I get really angry when I hear not only the nonsense about those that work, don't work or don't want to work (tell me, how many of these so called slackers have you interviewed personally?), but also when a person falls back on family history of military service as a shot against liberal or progressive social thinkers as being non-patriotic.

I don't come from a distinguished US military family, but my Dad, brother, 2 Uncles and several cousins served as enlisted women and men (on the front lines) in the military from WWII onward, covering it, Korea, Vietnam, & Desert Storm. Additionally, I have relatives that were relocated to camps here in the Good ‘Ole USA under the Enemy Aliens Acts along with the Japanese and other immigrant groups at the very same time my Uncles were serving in WWII overseas. Thinking maybe it is I that ought to be so pissed at the government!! I have both family and friends with loved ones in Afghanistan & Iraq right now, which are on their 3rd & 4th tour of duty.

Although I question the politics about the various wars we have been and are engaged in, I thank and shake the hand of every single service person I run into in public in a uniform. I do this because I mean it and support them and know that they do not make the war policy. I lost several friends in Vietnam before they reached age 20. I was sickened by how the Vietnam veterans were treated upon their return home- even if I disagreed with that conflict.

I have had times that the people I am with when I walk up to service people and thank them that think its weird due to my political thoughts and social ideology. What I say to them is that I can disagree with the politics and still appreciate the sacrifices these people are making on my behalf. I am no less a patriot than any tea bagging, anti-government nut-cake when it comes to supporting those that serve. I also have expressed appreciation for those that have served the US in many other kinds of ways such as through the Peace Corps, Vista, Habitat for Humanity, etc. All of these people are giving something back.

I can appreciate your beliefs, although, you do appear to have some bigoted views, as your own. But, please do not assume that those of us that have more liberal political and ideological attitudes are somehow not patriotic or do not recognize what our military does and what their entire family goes through when they are serving.

Frankly, this liberal queer has no problem with more of my tax money going to the various programs to benefit service people that need so much support returning from the wars we are in and are not getting. That makes me sick, too! They deserve better.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Aside from the name calling here, you have struck yet another nerve for me and the countless members here that I know to have served in the military (I have not). And not just a few of whom had to exit due to DADT.

I get really angry when I hear not only the nonsense about those that work, don't work or don't want to work (tell me, how many of these so called slackers have you interviewed personally?), but also when a person falls back on family history of military service as a shot against liberal or progressive social thinkers as being non-patriotic.

I don't come from a distinguished US military family, but my Dad, brother, 2 Uncles and several cousins served as enlisted women and men (on the front lines) in the military from WWII onward, covering it, Korea, Vietnam, & Desert Storm. Additionally, I have relatives that were relocated to camps here in the Good ‘Ole USA under the Enemy Aliens Acts along with the Japanese and other immigrant groups at the very same time my Uncles were serving in WWII overseas. Thinking maybe it is I that ought to be so pissed at the government!! I have both family and friends with loved ones in Afghanistan & Iraq right now, which are on their 3rd & 4th tour of duty.

Although I question the politics about the various wars we have been and are engaged in, I thank and shake the hand of every single service person I run into in public in a uniform. I do this because I mean it and support them and know that they do not make the war policy. I lost several friends in Vietnam before they reached age 20. I was sickened by how the Vietnam veterans were treated upon their return home- even if I disagreed with that conflict.

I have had times that the people I am with when I walk up to service people and thank them that think its weird due to my political thoughts and social ideology. What I say to them is that I can disagree with the politics and still appreciate the sacrifices these people are making on my behalf. I am no less a patriot than any tea bagging, anti-government nut-cake when it comes to supporting those that serve. I also have expressed appreciation for those that have served the US in many other kinds of ways such as through the Peace Corps, Vista, Habitat for Humanity, etc. All of these people are giving something back.

I can appreciate your beliefs, although, you do appear to have some bigoted views, as your own. But, please do not assume that those of us that have more liberal political and ideological attitudes are somehow not patriotic or do not recognize what our military does and what their entire family goes through when they are serving.

Frankly, this liberal queer has no problem with more of my tax money going to the various programs to benefit service people that need so much support returning from the wars we are in and are not getting. That makes me sick, too! They deserve better.

thank you..............

sometimes the simplest thing says it all..................

[casey35]

Originally Posted by key

But to be fair most Democrats are just as slimey as the Republicans. But to be fair, at this point the only decent handful of politicians in Washington right now are in the Democratic Party (and the Independent, Democratic/Socialist Bernie Sanders).

And I agree, anyone supporting any Republican at this time in our nations history is, in my opinion, a traitor to this country and should be treated accordingly. They are dragging us back to pre-revolution days. I honestly think that is what they mean when they say they want to "take our country back". Back to when women and blacks and any other minority were simply rich white men's property.

How these rich white men are (still) convincing poor people to fight for their rights to own them is baffling, just baffling to me. But then again when the only news and information available to these poor communities is Fox "News" and Rush Limbaugh....well, it does begin to make sense. Keep the poor people afraid of the other poor people so they never band together. It has worked for generation after generation.

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