Obama's Health Care Overhaul: Your Opinions

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by casey35

key you are an ass hole because my family is republican, My Dad served 34 years in the military so u need to back up and get off your high horse thinking u are always right.

I am a flaming ass progressive...who voted for Reagan the first time and was a Republican.......my family on my father's side has bunches of career military........bunches of them for generations.......some of them were warriors who met the Mayflower and some of them were on the Mayflower or with the Conquistadors.............

I would suggest, as a Vietnam Era veteran, that you might need to back up yourself.

And............just to be clear...........you never actually addressed any of dreadgeek's points.......

I, for one, want to know how you think a flawed bill that addresses the payment of health care costs ....and it will benefit you regardless of what you think........is somehow going to cause you harm?

It's a shame that you refuse to access food stamps and other government programs that you actually paid for........you paid ahead for a time you (or someone else) might have a need for assistance.

Thinking you can do everything alone......well.......one day you will find out asking for help and getting it in the form of health care or food or housing or ______ is not a sin or a sign of weakness or a hand-out .........

getting food stamps or any other 'entitlement benefit' is simply a hand-up based on your previous payment of taxes into the system......by not accessing the services you have already paid for makes you a fool and hungry and bitter ...........

by the way........calling folks names to avoid answering questions or responding to thoughtful posts is childish at best..............careful how you show your own ass.......

[Corkey]

casey, there are plenty of Vets here, some of us served in various wars. My father was also a Vet and a republican, that has not a damn thing to do with this issue of health care. Like Toughy we served and are entitled to our benefits, if you'd like to put your name on the dotted line and join those of us who have served, you too can have health care, oh it's provided by the government.

If you'd like to play games with this, I'm afraid it wont serve you well.

[casey35]

This is the last i am going to reply. I am tired of people calling people unamerican if we do not feel like you or have the same opinion as you do. The reason why i call Key a bad name is because he said that republicans were unamerican. To me that was uncalled for. No one has the right to call an american citizen unamerican. So if you want to report me that fine with me.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by casey35

This is the last i am going to reply. I am tired of people calling people unamerican if we do not feel like you or have the same opinion as you do. The reason why i call Key a bad name is because he said that republicans were unamerican. To me that was uncalled for. No one has the right to call an american citizen unamerican. So if you want to report me that fine with me.

quote the post that called you or anyone else (key) unamerican and I will stand with you and denounce that kind of rhetoric.........otherwise..........you tell lies and think you can get away with it based on some victim stance.

I don't give two shits why you acted like a two year old when you called key names.........you acted like a two year old and that has no place in an articulate discussion.

That ignorant racist law passed in AZ gives the police the right to decide who they think might not be an american............goddess help all my nieces/nephews and great nephews/nieces who are brown and white if they ever cross the border from New Mexico into Arizona....that law gives some redneck AZ lawman the right to decide who they think needs papers to prove they are american...

spit..........and no fucking popcorn

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by casey35

This is the last i am going to reply. I am tired of people calling people unamerican if we do not feel like you or have the same opinion as you do. The reason why i call Key a bad name is because he said that republicans were unamerican. To me that was uncalled for. No one has the right to call an american citizen unamerican. So if you want to report me that fine with me.

You know, I can't help but notice that you focused on the post where you got butthurt and ignored the post where your position was systematically but very respectfully dismantled before your very eyes. I didn't call you un-American. I said that your position that America was "founded on self-reliance" was not even wrong. I said that you appeared to be missing the point but, again, didn't call you names. I didn't mention your family at all but demonstrated that you are not the self-made, monad that is your *self-proclaimed* image of yourself.

I also have to say that I find it the very height of irony that a Republican and conservative would be calling people out on questioning the patriotism of other Americans. You invoked your father's years of service as a rhetorical device. It's a way of saying "my family is more American than thou". Except, as Corkey pointed out, there are *at least* three veterans on this thread that I am aware of (Corkey, Toughy and myself). I have a three-generation tradition of military service in my family--three consecutive generations--and it wouldn't surprise me if one of my grand-children makes it a fourth. In fact, just in my immediate family the *only* people who have not worn the uniform are my granddaughter (who is 2), my mother and my daughter-in-law. My father, my sister, my son and I all wore the uniform of the US Army. My sister made a career out of it and my son aspires to. I would have but I was kicked out (three guesses as to why). So pulling the veteran card here is not going to help much.

Either you have an argument or you don't. If you have an argument, make your argument. I can be convinced, I'm sure that the rest of us can be convinced, so convince us. Convince us that as a matter of social contract, we should be prepared to let, for instance, people whose jobs have been moved overseas by some corporation to starve because there are people who cheat the unemployment system. Convince us that, as a matter of policy, we should let those who are disabled starve for lack of food or die for lack of medical care because they are disabled. Convince us that the newborn baby should starve or not get medical care because her mother is a 17 year old girl who made one mistake, one night and couldn't bring herself to terminate the pregnancy. Convince us that the most well-off, the strongest in society, should have no compunction about trampling on the bodies of the weakest and the poorest and that, as we grind their faces into the mud, we should be telling them that this is no more than what they deserve because they are lazy. If you are right. If your vision of society is the one that is best for society, convince me.

Convince me that America is less free because of the 40-hour work week. Convince me that America needs no public schools or libraries. Convince me that America is less productive because there are laws against child labor, because of unemployment insurance, social security insurance, Medicare. Convince me that there should be no VA because SOME veterans are strung out on drugs or drink or both.

I recognize that there are cheats in the system but I'm not prepared to burn the whole thing to the ground, penalize those who have merely fallen on hard times, to satisfy some sense of righteous indignation. But you can convince me, if you are right and you are very, very good. Go for it. That's a tall mountain to climb, you might want to bring oxygen.

Cheers
aj

[key]

How do we get through to people who refuse to debate in facts, or to even defend their opinion with any clarity. F-you is not a rebuttal founded in information. Even if their information is based on dubious sources we at least have a ground from which to discuss the matter. As far as I can see the biggest concern to Casey is that her taxes will go up. Many people have pointed out that her taxes have actually been lowered. If she recently did her taxes, surely she sees her return is larger this year.

Dreadgeek I totally appreciate all the time you took to present your case. I think what we are seeing in reaction is pretty typical for our tea party citizens and other conservatives. They do not operate from facts, only fears. So all the rational debate in the world simply will not compute for these people. I admit that my facts are peppered with emotional appeals. But even this does not seem to get through.

There must be someone among us with the NLP skills that can instruct us on how best to get through to them.

I am not anti-Republican. In my opinion Eisenhower was the last great Republican President we had. He warned us against the Military Industrial Complex, taxes on the rich (equivalent to about 3 million a year in today's dollars) were upwards of 70-90%. Heck I even praise Nixon for giving us the G-Blessed EPA! What happened to "real" conservative values. As in conserving our environment, conserving our blood and treasure, conserving our economy by not allowing any person (corporate or human) to get "too big to fail."

What to do what to do? I can't stand watching poor people defend the rights of the rich. HELP!

Actually, I just thought of something. Maybe the biggest concern to Casey (and others) is that she not be seen as "taking a hand out." There is a lot of pride/shame going on there. I am sure Casey represent many of our citizens in this regard. They don't want to associate themselves with what they perceive as weakness (the "lazy asses"). How do you convince someone with such pride/shame that getting help is not a bad thing? Again someone with NLP language skills might be able to chime in here and give us all a hand. Anyone?

[Jess]

Originally Posted by key

How do we get through to people who refuse to debate in facts, or to even defend their opinion with any clarity. F-you is not a rebuttal founded in information. Even if their information is based on dubious sources we at least have a ground from which to discuss the matter. As far as I can see the biggest concern to Casey is that her taxes will go up. Many people have pointed out that her taxes have actually been lowered. If she recently did her taxes, surely she sees her return is larger this year.

Dreadgeek I totally appreciate all the time you took to present your case. I think what we are seeing in reaction is pretty typical for our tea party citizens and other conservatives. They do not operate from facts, only fears. So all the rational debate in the world simply will not compute for these people. I admit that my facts are peppered with emotional appeals. But even this does not seem to get through.

There must be someone among us with the NLP skills that can instruct us on how best to get through to them.

I am not anti-Republican. In my opinion Eisenhower was the last great Republican President we had. He warned us against the Military Industrial Complex, taxes on the rich (equivalent to about 3 million a year in today's dollars) were upwards of 70-90%. Heck I even praise Nixon for giving us the G-Blessed EPA! What happened to "real" conservative values. As in conserving our environment, conserving our blood and treasure, conserving our economy by not allowing any person (corporate or human) to get "too big to fail."

What to do what to do? I can't stand watching poor people defend the rights of the rich. HELP!

Actually, I just thought of something. Maybe the biggest concern to Casey (and others) is that she not be seen as "taking a hand out." There is a lot of pride/shame going on there. I am sure Casey represent many of our citizens in this regard. They don't want to associate themselves with what they perceive as weakness (the "lazy asses"). How do you convince someone with such pride/shame that getting help is not a bad thing? Again someone with NLP language skills might be able to chime in here and give us all a hand. Anyone?

Perhaps first by not talking about them as if they aren't here. Or talking in a language someone w/o your same skill ( vocabulary) set may not understand.

What I, as a reader, just witnessed in your above post was beyond rude. I know you truly mean well. I know you truly wish to be able to assist someone with seeing things through a different lens. As someone who does take an interest ( completely NON partisan, as I think both parties suck), I am watching you fail miserably.

I agree with many many points you and others ( dreadgeek, Kobi, christie, et al ) have expressed. I am also the adult child of someone who refused "to take a handout" when my dad decided to exercise his right to be a fuckhead. I and my siblings along with my mother suffered at the hands of not only his assholishness but because of my mother's pride. So, I get where the not wanting to be dependent upon what has been seen as a "handout" comes from. My mom may not have had to work herself to utter ruin had she accepted help. She may not have become the willful, self determined, non-negotiable woman she did.

The problem is this... You present a case that may perhaps be unknown to someone else. You present what you see as "positive" and a gradual slide forward. You fail to see how she sees things or take into consideration where she is coming from. You do not speak to her. Get it?

There is good AND bad in this piece of now history. Perhaps if we can reasonably see all sides and figure out where it needs to go next we can begin to forge those bridges. If you can't see the other side, you will never breech it.( By you I mean ANY "you", not just you, key.)

The choice to keep banging your head against a wall, as someone else hinted to, I believe the wordage was "talking to a rock" ( lovely, no? ), or you can try to use a different approach. It's always YOUR choice to engage or not. It's always YOUR choice as to a change in strategy or NOT.

For me the question you asked bears another worthy avenue. Do you REALLY wish to engage, or do you just want to make a point? As I see it, those with the most ammunition should be the ones more willing to offer a different road than tossing it.


Sorry for the further derail. My bad.

[Corkey]

When someone refuses to speak to facts, and only comes at the debate with emotion, then it isn't a debate, it is in fact manipulative and childish. Now did I use any words that were so over the head that they cannot be understood? No. Fact: if one makes over $250 K a year their taxes will go up. Fact: if one makes less than $250 K a year they will go down.
The rest of her argument was lost in emotion.
So while banging heads on a wall and "talking to a rock" which btw weren't exactly used, may seem harsh, they are in fact exactly what is happening.
MY .02

[key]

Originally Posted by Jess

Perhaps first by not talking about them as if they aren't here. Or talking in a language someone w/o your same skill ( vocabulary) set may not understand.

What I, as a reader, just witnessed in your above post was beyond rude.

"key you are an ass hole"..... ~Casey35

Maybe it's just me, but I prefer to not correspond directly to people who call me an asshole.

And excuse me, but you are assuming that Casey did not understand what I was writing? Darling, I am a high school drop out, my vocabulary is not *that* advanced. Who exactly is being condescending to who?

Casey has been asked very direct very simple questions to which she has refused to answer. Instead she resorts to name calling. There is no point for me to address her directly anymore. But I do not believe that she is the only one with her fears and freak outs (mostly due to conservative media's Misinformation and Propaganda Machine). I would like to learn how to talk to people like her.

So what is your suggestion for when someone calls you an asshole and refuses to answer simple questions about their beliefs and opinions?