Obama's Health Care Overhaul: Your Opinions

[casey35]

Originally Posted by key

The saddest part for me is to read on here where another lesbian, another poor person has come to believe that instead of reaching out to help each other we must fight like dogs over the scraps of bone that the fat cats toss us from time to time.

This is exactly how the rich and greedy want us. So desperate that we come to fear that working together, helping each other, yes even sacrificing for another will somehow threaten our very safety, and the little bit of almost nothing that we have to work so hard to get and maintain. Americans attacking other Americans for being "lazy ass." The ole Ronald Reagan Welfare Queen myth alive and well. The other side of that myth is that the rich people among us "earned" all their obscene wealth. (gag)

I was raised to believe that many hands make the load lighter. That I am not an island, that I actually need other people, and that they actually need me. That is called community, society, and working together towards a bigger goal than any one of us could attain on our own it is not a bad thing.

I was raised to believe that the citizens of this country ARE the Government. This great American Experiment of a Government Of the People, For the People, By the People is not some legend. It is alive (though barely breathing thanks to the rich raping and pillaging it for the last 30 years - thanks Reagan and every President since) But we can revive that great American Spirit that founded this country, that ordinary citizens can create a government (many hands working together) that meets the needs of its citizens as outlined in the Preamble.

1)Form a more perfect Union (Federal Standards while respecting states rights)

2) Establish Justice (write and enforce these standards, and have an equal and fair justice system)

3) Ensure domestic tranquility (no prejudice, no hate, minority rights not trampled by majority)

4) Provide for the Common Defense (this is the only one the cons want you know about)

5) Promote the General Welfare (yes, gov. supporting ways to have basic needs met - education, food, shelter, and health care)

6)Ensure the blessings of Liberty (when basic needs are met people are free to experiment, to grow, to innovate, to be entrepreneurial)

Roosevelt said it best when he said. We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

Dear Key, what saddens me is that some other person is judging me on my opinion, someone who does not even know who I am. I have opened my home to those who need help no matter who or what they are. I am done discussing this matter. I am tired of people thinking I am uneducated, selfish, or stupid because I have a different opinion.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by casey35

Dear Key, what saddens me is that some other person is judging me on my opinion, someone who does not even know who I am. I have opened my home to those who need help no matter who or what they are. I am done discussing this matter. I am tired of people thinking I am uneducated, selfish, or stupid because I have a different opinion.

No one is judging you, get off the pitty party and stand up for what you say you believe in. You espouse that which has been proven to be wrong and now you want to play the I'm being judged card. it doesn't fly. Opinions are a dime a dozen, facts are just that facts.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Corkey

No one is judging you, get off the pitty party and stand up for what you say you believe in. You espouse that which has been proven to be wrong and now you want to play the I'm being judged card. it doesn't fly. Opinions are a dime a dozen, facts are just that facts.

Actually, she was judged. I don't blame her for wanting to step away from the conversation. Her first judgement was that she was racist. She apologized and it wasn't enough.

I have had this conversation on this site before and will not subject my home to it again. Be clear. Not coming to defend anyone. Just noting that yes, she was judged. Please go back and read it all from the beginning.

Sometimes a healthy distance gives us all a better perspective. I try not to judge folks who have a different experience in life than I have had. I try not to judge folks who say things with words that don't sit well with me. I try. Sometimes I fail to make my point clearly or concisely without ruffling feathers. I guess if I put myself out there, then I am due my own lil ass whooping.

If someone tries and feels they have failed and says they need to step aside, that should be honored and enough. Just my opinion.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Jess

Actually, she was judged. I don't blame her for wanting to step away from the conversation. Her first judgement was that she was racist. She apologized and it wasn't enough.

I have had this conversation on this site before and will not subject my home to it again. Be clear. Not coming to defend anyone. Just noting that yes, she was judged. Please go back and read it all from the beginning.

Sometimes a healthy distance gives us all a better perspective. I try not to judge folks who have a different experience in life than I have had. I try not to judge folks who say things with words that don't sit well with me. I try. Sometimes I fail to make my point clearly or concisely without ruffling feathers. I guess if I put myself out there, then I am due my own lil ass whooping.

If someone tries and feels they have failed and says they need to step aside, that should be honored and enough. Just my opinion.

If she feels so judged then maybe it's best she remove herself from the thread. The parting shot of " I am tired of people thinking I am uneducated, selfish, or stupid because I have a different opinion." is pure pitty me BS. It's manipulative and high school angst.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Corkey

If she feels so judged then maybe it's best she remove herself from the thread. The parting shot of " I am tired of people thinking I am uneducated, selfish, or stupid because I have a different opinion." is pure pitty me BS. It's manipulative and high school angst.

I saw it as her giving reason for removing herself. Her right to do so. I see a lot of shit as high school angst and it saddens me.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Jess

I saw it as her giving reason for removing herself. Her right to do so. I see a lot of shit as high school angst and it saddens me.

I see it as "no one agrees with me so I'm going to go into a corner and pout".
It's politics folks, not high school.

[Jess]

Whew... not to beat a dead horse, as it is no longer about her but about our responses to her action. I think you really want to beat up on her because she didn't agree with you. Sorry. I like your additions to most threads and all, but I gotta part ways on this one man. A woman stands up for what she truly feels is right and gets bashed for it. Some do it with an educational purpose. Some do it just to be right.
Our purpose here is to grow. By here, I mean on this lil planet.. not website. How are we supposed to do that when folks just immediately bash us back into the ground? It happened to her. It has happened to others.

I just erased an entire two paragraphs outlining exactly what my "gut reaction" to this healthcare law really is. I know it would make me no friends. Here is how I will pretty it up. It is crap. It is not what should have been done and now will only delay what needs to be done in its undoing. Period. I can't afford insurance. I have chronic illness. I will be asked to pay a penalty AND pay my medical bills out of pocket. I have to now pay attorney fees to find ways to protect my home. I think it was an act of cowardice and a disservice to the American people. Meanwhile, every year that this is allowed to stand, my penalties will increase just as the Romney care in Mass has done.

Would have been better off without it. That is the statement from a poor person who can't afford it. It will do me no favors.

[key]

"I must not be liberal thank god. "

That is a quote from the person who left because she felt like she was being judged. That was posted long before I posted my rant about wishing she cared enough to work together politically to change our f-ed up system (not just health care, the entire predator capitalist system we operate under).

The other thing I could not stand reading from her over and over was how lazy she thought other people (I guess people in need specifically) were. F that! Most poor people have to work twice as hard to get half as much in this country. And if anyone should know that she should!

Anyway. I agree with you Jess that this "reform" is f-ed up, but after not having health insurance for the 10 years that I have been self employed, I don't care, I want to see a doctor without fear of going bankrupt due to what they may find.

Jess, there are hardship waivers in this law, have you looked through it? Are you sure that your only option is to take the fine and pay out of pocket? If you feel comfortable PMing me (or posting here) with details of your situation I could comb through this bill and try and answer your specific questions.

Have you done the subsidy calculator already?

[casey35]

To those who are what they are . Hope u all well. But I still believe what i believe. We will see taxes raised and I will be waiting for the day to say I told you so.

[Corkey]

Oh good grief. Does this mean you actually read the law? Or is it a thumb your nose at everyone who disagrees with you? All we ask is that you read it, digest what it means, even to you.

Here I'll even do your leg work for you.
Here it is :http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/113xx/doc...ter_HR3590.pdf

[christie]

Originally Posted by key

"I must not be liberal thank god. "

That is a quote from the person who left because she felt like she was being judged. That was posted long before I posted my rant about wishing she cared enough to work together politically to change our f-ed up system (not just health care, the entire predator capitalist system we operate under).

The other thing I could not stand reading from her over and over was how lazy she thought other people (I guess people in need specifically) were. F that! Most poor people have to work twice as hard to get half as much in this country. And if anyone should know that she should!

Anyway. I agree with you Jess that this "reform" is f-ed up, but after not having health insurance for the 10 years that I have been self employed, I don't care, I want to see a doctor without fear of going bankrupt due to what they may find.

Jess, there are hardship waivers in this law, have you looked through it? Are you sure that your only option is to take the fine and pay out of pocket? If you feel comfortable PMing me (or posting here) with details of your situation I could comb through this bill and try and answer your specific questions.

Have you done the subsidy calculator already?

Key -

Thank you for your offer. I have read the bill and know not only what it won't entail for Jess, but also the fallout to both mine and my special needs son's current coverage. Part of my job is benefits administration and I also can forecast the impact it will have on the coverage we currently offer to our employees.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head...

Yes, its grand that pre-exists will be no longer. What it doesn't do is cap the premium for those with pre-exists. Unfortunately, I believe that most currently uninsured folks will have higher premiums b/c of this "oversight" in the bill. That will only burden the subsidy/funding issue further.

The tax on the "cadillac plans" - I see this as being handed down to employers in rate hikes - I currently offer three different coverages to our employees - all three would fall into this category. Do you think that BCBS is gonna just absorb the cost?? Hell no. We will see it in rate increases, but they will be much more than the 12-15% per year increases we have seen over the last 4 years and it will effectively force the small business who has employed folks for over 57 years to drop health coverage.

That the federal government would oversee any new plans?? Oh hell no - if Medicare is a shining example of oversight, I'll pass, thanks. Don't even get me started on the Part D debacle and how most of the legislators supporting it went on to be bankrolled by the pharmaceutical companies.

I watched as the state of TN took Medicaid dollars and pooled them into several managed care programs. Anyone caring to take a look at that successful model, feel free to google "TennCare." It was a fiasco that left many covered individuals without medical care because the administration of the plans was so fucked up, providers stopped accepting patients if they were TNCare recipients.

Do I think we need a single payer system? Yes. Do I think that people such as my beloved Jess need to battle chronic, debilitating illness without consistent, proper, adequate medical care? No. Do I think that ANYONE should have to choose between healthcare and food? No. Do I want my government, who has a glorious way of fucking up the simplest of things, involved in the insurance coverage that my son depends on? No. I want a solution - a workable solution. Not a Band-Aid on a gushing artery.

I think this was another "throwing a bone" so that it looked good for midterm elections. I think it was a piss poor effort and would have rather our elected officials really grown a set of balls and went for the tougher fight of Single Payer. It really would have been worth it and not felt like we were sold out or that they settled yet once again.

[MsDemeanor]

If it weren't for the Party Of No, aka the Senate Republicans, filibustering virtually everything that has come through the Senate (they really have, go check for yourself) and refusing to sign on to absolutely anything the Obama supports, even if those same Republicans have written or sponsored the same language/ideas/concepts in the past, then we'd have real health reform. Instead, we have a few dozen people who are so hell bent on the black man in the white house failing that they will screw over this entire country and not give a rats ass.

Their latest slimy decision, buy the way, was to filibuster debate of Wall Street Reform in the Senate. They didn't filibuster a bill, they said we won't even allow this to be discussed on the floor of the Senate, in front of the American People. I officially have nothing nice to say to and/or about any Republican. The Senate Republicans are the scum of the earth, and anyone who supports them is swimming in the same scum.

I'm over it.

[key]

Originally Posted by christie0918

Key -


Yes, its grand that pre-exists will be no longer. What it doesn't do is cap the premium for those with pre-exists.

So, what this means it does not change what you have now - insurance co's being able to raise rates as much as they want. They were trying to raise rates 20-30-40% as this bill was being debated. But the change is that they can't drop you, like they had been doing.

Originally Posted by christie0918

The tax on the "cadillac plans" - I see this as being handed down to employers in rate hikes - I currently offer three different coverages to our employees - all three would fall into this category. Do you think that BCBS is gonna just absorb the cost?? Hell no. We will see it in rate increases, but they will be much more than the 12-15% per year increases we have seen over the last 4 years and it will effectively force the small business who has employed folks for over 57 years to drop health coverage.

So, if the co does drop it's plans, they better give that benefit money directly to the employee so they can shop for their own coverage. This may be helpful to getting us on the path to single payer. HC should not (in my opinion) be employer based. Hopefully you work at a union shop so the union can fight to make sure this happens (benefit $ goes directly to employees).

Originally Posted by christie0918

That the federal government would oversee any new plans?? Oh hell no - if Medicare is a shining example of oversight, I'll pass, thanks.

You know what the second most satisfied group of healthcare recipients are in the US? Recipients of Medicare. Know what the first is? Recipients of the VA. (Our Socialist Medicine). Know what the least satisfied is? Private Insurance.

Originally Posted by christie0918

Don't even get me started on the Part D debacle and how most of the legislators supporting it went on to be bankrolled by the pharmaceutical companies.

Part D is what you get when Republicans are in charge. They care nothing, not one iota about human people, only corporate "persons". Period.

Originally Posted by christie0918

I watched as the state of TN took Medicaid dollars and pooled them into several managed care programs. Anyone caring to take a look at that successful model, feel free to google "TennCare." It was a fiasco that left many covered individuals without medical care because the administration of the plans was so fucked up, providers stopped accepting patients if they were TNCare recipients.

More Republicans in charge I imagine. Just a guess.

Originally Posted by christie0918

Do I think we need a single payer system? Yes.

With all due respect, you just went off about how Government can't do it right? Who do want administering this single payer system? A private company? That answers to ....it's shareholders...not the people using it's service? Give me the Government (who I can fire at 2 year intervals if need be) running this system any day over a private company only out to make a profit, answerable only to the bottom line. That is how we got in this mess to begin with Healthcare (actually it's denial) for profit.

Originally Posted by christie0918

Do I think that people such as my beloved Jess need to battle chronic, debilitating illness without consistent, proper, adequate medical care? No. Do I think that ANYONE should have to choose between healthcare and food? No. Do I want my government, who has a glorious way of fucking up the simplest of things, involved in the insurance coverage that my son depends on? No. I want a solution - a workable solution. Not a Band-Aid on a gushing artery.

Again, you want a CEO making 7 million a year deciding your and your son's health care "coverage" People who rail against the government running things, I ask. So we should privatize everything? Is there nothing so precious to you that you want to have control (through the political process) over who gets to "control" it? You want everything to be about the bottom line and making sure someone makes a buck off it? Like corporations have not f-ed the country up (can we say a housing bubble that nearly destroyed this country? how about a military contractor that lost 9 billion dollars in cash and electrocuted our troops in the shower? how about giving away American's well paying jobs to communists so that their shareholders could make more money, geesh I could go on and on about predatory capitalism, talk about a gushing artery)

Whew! Enough.

Originally Posted by christie0918

I think this was another "throwing a bone" so that it looked good for midterm elections. I think it was a piss poor effort and would have rather our elected officials really grown a set of balls and went for the tougher fight of Single Payer. It really would have been worth it and not felt like we were sold out or that they settled yet once again.

Again, the contradiction. You hate the Government running things, but you want single payer. I don't get it. Please explain.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by casey35

Dear Key, what saddens me is that some other person is judging me on my opinion, someone who does not even know who I am. I have opened my home to those who need help no matter who or what they are. I am done discussing this matter. I am tired of people thinking I am uneducated, selfish, or stupid because I have a different opinion.

You have a right to your opinion. Other people have a right to an opinion *about* their opinion.

If you believe you are right--and you clearly do--then convince us. Show that your position is better thought out, more coherent and has greater internal consistency. People *can* be convinced, but throwing tantrums and crying about your rights to free speech isn't a convincing argument.

[AtLast]

There is NO GOVERNMENT take-over of health-care in the US!! The health-care companies remain the SAME PRIVATELY held and run companies! If you are not covered in the VA system, your health-care is NOT PUBLIC. Yes, we all will be required to buy health insurance and the health-care industry is going to have more restrictions put upon it. Since they make over a 400% profit, I don't think any of this is going to hurt them! Now, the CEO's might have to take home a smaller multi-million dollar (or billion dollar) bonus, but I'm sure they can still pay their bills. Oh, and shell out for lobbying against a public system that would not only benefit everyone, but cost less!!

Overall, I am not against a profit-driven industry. However, what is it that some do not understand about the relationship of an inflated profit margin in the health-care industry to the continuing increase of medical care? And how this actually ends up in higher taxation and a larger national deficit in the long-run? I am in no way an economic wiz at, but even I can put this together. Also, the private healthcare industry will be receiving millions more customers under this reform plan without any competition from a public system at all. Not really a lot of reform going on. I guess some will twist this around in terms of existing programs such as MediCare. Funny how the likes of tea baggers don't want anyone messing with their MediCare!!!

The GOP and major private heal-care companies has done an excellent job of brainwashing, haven't they? You know, the elected Republican folks sitting in DC are also part of the GOVERNMENT!! In fact, they have quite a nice benefit package that we all pay for and will continue to do so when they retire. They do have Cadillac health-care benefits paid for by taxpayers directly. So, the rest of us shouldn't have this same coverage and access?

I just can't stand it that there still exists people that believe that health-care reform is a government take-over!! If you only want the private sector involved in health-care, OK, just say so and demonstrate the economic and social advantages, but stop all of the anti-government conspiracy BS.

I pay my way too and have no problem with chipping in taxes for the greater good. Sure, I don't like those that take advantage of things, but, frankly this is a very small number!! A healthier population leads to a healthier economy! And now there is actually some kind of mechanism requiring people to get healh insurance and leveling out things some.

And I am fed-up with swipes about people don't work! As someone else stated, poor people work harder than ought to be allowed! Hell, these days, look at how many people are working 2 or 3 jobs to make-up for job loss. And I'll gladly support someone that is getting themselves clean and sober in going to school or getting other employment training.. and I'll help foot the bill for their kids, too!

[Toughy]

Aj........I am always astonished at your ability to break it down............

I think the crux of the question is this:

Is health care a right or a privilege?

I think it is a right, therefore I think a single payor (government financed) system is the only Constitutional way to provide health care.

Each individual pays taxes.........those taxes pay for what we believe are rights............roads, the library, police, fire, infrastructure which used to be sewer, electrical, prison, roads, communication, and shit I can't even imagine (remember the internet was not on my radar 25 years ago).

Medicare has some serious issues..........that's because Republicans don't believe government works or is a good idea and they set up Medicare Part D to fail and to bankrupt Medicare. Republicans have been passing laws that insure the government will fail since Reagan. If you set it up to fail............it will fail............

By the way...........I am one of those single payor beneficiaries ............a recipient of true socialized medicine.......I get my health care from the VA.......

if the VA system is good enough for me and my sister and brother veterans...........then it's good enough for Joe the fucking fake plumber..........

mmmmmmmmmmmm................not sure where I am/was going with this...........so......I'm out for now...........