Question to butches and how they deal with differences in dating

imperfect_cupcake · 01-18-2015, 12:37 PM

I'm a 45 year old femme. I live in western Canada, presently. Lower middle class up bringing. Back ground in monogamy, non-monogamy and poly. I generally only date butches (mostly those who are on some scale of genderqueer, including butches who are women *and* another gender)

I was brought up with people experimenting sexually with friends, and sometimes those freindships turned into relationships after a time. That was seen as "normal".

When I stopped dating men and bisexual women and started dating butches my whole world was turned upside down with how "conservative" it was, even in comparison to my "straight" relationships with men. I found lesbian communities and butch-femme dyke/queer communities tended to be far more conservative in terms of monogamy than when I was dating men and bisexuals. I had zero understanding of the rituals.
Everything moved much too fast for me but I tried quite hard to fit in. After all, that's what dykes do, right?

I find the butches (locally, like between here and seattle) who are between say 33 and 40 to be actually pretty relaxed in terms of not rushing into things and being ok with dating casually and having sex in a less ... Ownership... (Not in the fun kinky way)... Kind of way. They seem to get the pace a bit more. I tend not to date people fresh out of relationships because they tend not to have gotten a sense of themselves again yet and still act in that "relationship" kind of way almost right off the bat. Like their gears haven't changed yet.

Once I start dating above the age of 40, I find it splits into two camps - ones who are terrified of commitment cause they got married to a complete asshole for 8 years, and those who seem to need monogamy off the bat from the word go, and are really suspect that if I don't want monogamy for the word go, then it means I don't like them enough and that I'm shagging everything I come in contact with.

Obviously not everyone thinks that way, as masterfulbutch has explained. But the assumption that I'm a dirty game playing skank because I'm cautious and I like sex seems really unfair and frankly, kind of insulting.

Over the past three years, when I have actually really, really liked someone, I don't tend to seek out new people to date but I don't like making a commitment just yet either. So I don't offer monogamy. But I don't *know* if I really really like someone unless I get to know them.

I also *dont* like doing really romantic stuff when I'm getting to know someone. That feels far too emotionally familiar to me. Since I am also perfectly capable of fun and casual sex, I also like to make sure that we click in bed, without making promises (commitment aka monogamy).

I think this is where I may diverge from many. I don't do deeper BDSM edge play in casual getting to know you sex. I know that for many of the people I date that a) they have difficulty with sex and gender and therefore they need greater trust with sex, thus to them it's a bigger deal with greater intimacy attached to it and b) bdsm (and often coming to grips with being genderqueer/butch is also being introduced to them by someone who *finally* understand that hidden bit they had to hide from their last gf/wife who hated it) is brand new and *very* challenging to their ideas that have always secretly clashed with "don't hurt women" ethos, so they never acted on.

So I think that makes certain acts a far "risker" and "intimate" thing off the bat for them then it does for me. But then I'm also an open book and can easily talk about being an ex sexworker, have a past with sex, drugs and rock and roll (lol tongue in cheek), and I don't find that it requires much emotional "risk" to talk about these things, that are, for many, a big risk to them.

I respect their feelings around that, trust me. I usually date and partner with die hard introverts with brains the size of watermelons who over think everything lol but keep things very close to the chest, though they are sociable.

I do find certain types of introverts are actually more gentle and open with allowing me the space I need to emotionally get to the point of being ok with monogamy. Others, the ones I tend to get kind of freak out by with pressure and feel very choked/squeezed by are the ones who want to start all the romance from the first step. Perhaps that's part of the problem as well. They like discovery through romance, and I'm more of a discovery through humour and frontal lobe kind of person. Someone giving me a bouquet of flowers on the first date will freak me out, not endear me.

Maybe I'm just a shitty romantic, but I think I like to save the deeper feelings and really deeply romantic things for when I can trust someone... And that trust comes in layers and pieces. Being ok with someone taking me out for an ice cream and sitting in the park holding hands is a WAY WAY bigger deal to me than getting-to-know you sex. And I feel really uncomfortable about allowing someone in that far (ice cream and hand holding in the park) before I've had exploratory sex with them first.

Most butches - though not all, obviously or I've never of had a relationship in my life and I've had seven long term ones from the age of 14 until now - don't like this progression because it seems for them, sex is a bigger risk because of the dislike of being touched by people in the first place (the ones I date at least), the trouble they have with trusting people before having sex because of gender issues, and the thought that they *want* romance from the get go.

The femmes I have dated and the femmes I have had sex with and the femmes that openly hit on me are far more sexually forward (probably cause they've had to learn to be with being invisible and all) and far more "let's jump in the fart sack now and see what happens later" and seem to be less concerned about commitment and tend to have the attitude of "if we are the best match for each other, we will find that out naturally and it will be obvious as it goes along" they are more "happy if it turns into a relationship, and it's ok if it doesn't"

But then the femmes I have slept with and dated have all be very *very* extroverted so who knows if that's a consideration as well. May or may not be. They also tend to not have much gender issues with being the owner of a cock. As in, they have one in their head, not just strapping on.

They also have been "gentleman femmes" in the sense of being studs on the inside and feminine on the outside and not into butches as they think that would be sexually same-same.

Again, it's just been my observation. I'm quite happy to be wrong on my anecdotal observations and generalist ideas.

I also tend to meet far more "old school" butches and post modern femmes. So that might have something to do with it as well. The trans guys and transmasculines I've met seem to be a bit less monogamy from the get go as well and a bit more post modern about it all but that could be just that I meet those guys through my friends and kinky events than on line.

Why don't I meet butches that way? At those same events? Cause the butches at those events that are Dominants tend to be married to their primary partner with one or two play subs already and I'm not really up for being a third. I'd much rather just meet someone who'd like a primary partner or monogamus partner (I am fine with either. I know that bends some people's brains but thing about it as being kind of the same as being bisexual but in a poly/mono kind of way. I'm happy in either situation, both are fine to me) than to become another where there is no possibility for a primary relationship.

There was someone, Dapper, but as of last night that's been nixed. But this issue will come up again as it has many times in the past. I really wish there was some kind of way around this issue with people because many of them are really worth while folk that I think are really incredible. But if I feel like my independance is being squelched, my sex drive evaporates completely and I don't want someone touching me. I will actually shrink from it. I get turned off, horribly. If someone gives me my freedom and allows me to slowly make a choice then they become sexier and sexier. It shows me a kind of confidence I find horribly attractive and incredibly sexy.

Kind of like the difference between someone telling me they are intimidated about having sex with me (it happens. Too often) and someone saying "hey, I may not know wtf I'm doing the first few times I try something new, but goddamn after some practice, baby, I'm going to be the best shag you ever had"

Mreow.

But then maybe I just like cocky.

And I'm guessing my wanting to have what I see as freedom to slowly make a choice (as they are!!!) is seen as hurtful Game Playing, just like I can't help feeling my sex drive evaporate by feeling controlled by a stranger.

I dunno, there must be some kind of middle ground.

imperfect_cupcake · 01-18-2015, 01:05 PM

Quote:

I can get on the same page with someone if I really like them and we are compatible and the chemistry and all that is there. I will get there if someone can be patient. I WANT the relationship, I just don't want it all at once up in my face after a few conversations, or one date, or having fucked once. It REALLY makes me panic. I don't like the pressure and I have trust issues so I like to take my time and really know what I am getting into. And I absolutely believe that takes TIME.

I wish I was better at being precise these days. I feel very rusty. Yes. That.

And yes, I also feel there is something between "totally casual sex" and "now we are in a committed relationship sex." I call it "getting to know you sex." But I find some people are quite insulted by that notion

or see it as some kind of threat or that once their back is turned I'm going to shag two other people, compare and contrast shagging techniques on a score card in six different categories and they will wind up lacking in some way.

Which is kind of bizarre. But I guess people feel what they feel. That's really not the way I approach sex, ever. And I NEVER think of someone else when I'm in bed with someone, therefore it's impossible for me to actually compare two people. And that's a bit of a foreign concept to me anyway. I don't compare people. I don't sit and think about who I was with that was the best kisser ever. That seems kind of ... I dunno... What I did when I was first kissing boys and girls when I was 12.

So I dunno. Maybe there is some way for me to feel not pressured and for them to feel not insecure or threatened? And what would that look like?

Kelt · 01-18-2015, 01:29 PM

Right off the bat I want to say thanks for the novela, because this is the kind of thing that needs clarification and context. I also need to say that my experiences in the dating world are extremely limited and I don’t believe I’ve ever successfully navigated those waters, so anything I say here is pretty much a theoretical exercise.

I guess that for me dating would be more of a play the field, see what’s out there with no commitment to anything other than getting to know the other person. Courting would be more of a step towards something more significant and that’s where things like sexual boundaries and what’s in the future discussions happen and maybe decisions about whether or not to continue shape up.

IF the above is understood by both parties, huge IF there, then no, I don’t think it would be reasonable to dish out ultimatums, push for commitments, or extended negotiations would apply to the ‘dating’ phase. If the above is not understood it needs to be, because then expectations can be managed. (To be clear I don't think ultimatums are ever appropriate, but I'm answering the original question)

I don’t do, and have no desire to do, casual sex. Neither however would I require some full on commitment before a test drive. I am stone and (not speaking for any other stone) come pre-loaded with a box of boundaries when it comes to the physical. That requires trust above a two date level for me. I do understand that casual sex is pretty common for others and would just have to accept that casual means casual for them and not request limits on that while dating because that’s just dating right? Likely easier said than done, but that is my own stuff to deal with.

The “lesbian” community jump into commitment tendency that Dapper mentions has been a real problem for me and such that I’m pretty gun shy about even getting into anything at all. This may apply to other communities and I’m just unaware. I have ended up in inadvertent relationships when I was very young and had what I thought were friendships morph into something else without being aware of it until after the fact. (I blame myself for missing social cues). I have received an ultimatum very early in the courting stage and it stopped me in my tracks. I’ve been single for a couple of years and don’t see that changing soon.

I don’t know about trends on this front, I only know that I am a butch in no rush, and am at a stage in life where I will not be rushed. I am 53. I have been involved with femmes who were both a dozen years younger than me and a dozen years older than me. I think age differences matter more at the very young end of the scale (20’s) than later.

Sleepybutch has some really good points and if I were ‘in the pool’ so to speak would also spend time figuring out more of this up front.

Mulling all of this over I see some good perspectives here to think about. Might be back, will definitely keep reading.

Thanks for a good thread idea Cupcake!

ETA: Since writing this other posts have come up, so I'll likely be back.

SleepyButch · 01-18-2015, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

So I dunno. Maybe there is some way for me to feel not pressured and for them to feel not insecure or threatened? And what would that look like?

I think the only thing you can do is communicate communicate communicate. I am sure you do this. There are some that do not.

If I know what I'm getting in right away, then I can make up my mind if I want to participate or not.

I think you already kind of answered your own question or how it work if it were you and I dating.

You said this up above:

"Thing is with monogamy and sex, I tend not to have multiple sex partners, it's very very rare I do. However, I don't like making the commitment of promising not to, before I know the person. It doesn't mean I'm going to go sleep with three other people."

If I knew that this, I don't think I'd be threatened or insecure. I guess it depends on how much you want to share about this with someone new.

ETA if someone doesn't accept you for wanting or not wanting something, are they really worth your time in the long run?

imperfect_cupcake · 01-18-2015, 02:53 PM

Quote:

If I knew that this, I don't think I'd be threatened or insecure. I guess it depends on how much you want to share about this with someone new.

Hmn. Tricky. I don't know. The last time I dated someone I quite liked neither of us was asking for monogamy off the bat because we were both the same about it. I told her on the first date that I didn't mind who she dated or slept with and she didn't have to tell me about it unless she wanted to talk to me as a friend about it (which she did. She had an issue and a bad date and wanted to tell me and I listened and we joked. Which actually made me feel closer and safer with her).

After we had been dating a while, we both decided we would like to know if the other person was sleeping with anyone else. She had never done this before and was nervous about it so I said "let's role play it! You tell me and I'll be me!"
We laughed and joked our way through the role play and she felt much better about it.

But about four months along she wanted to meet someone "for sex or for a date, date. Like proper romantic date?"
"Proper romantic date"
And I knew at that point we were at different stages and wanted different things, for now. So I bowed out. And it busted me to do it. If she had been meeting someone for a fun casual sex date, I would have felt jealous but nothing I couldn't deal with. Her wanting to meet someone to romance, made me scared and I knew I couldn't do it.
She was deeply upset with me breaking things off and didn't understand. I said that we were at different points and I wouldn't be able to handle it and it would affect us both. But she was welcome to come back at anytime in the future should she choose because I still thought she was the bees knees.
No, apparently, for her, if you ring the bell, it's done.

Dating is hard. I'm not really a big fan of it.

So the possibility of me sleeping with someone would be there. Just highly unlikely. And if I *had* slept with someone while I was dating her, it would have been very casual and of little consequence to how I felt about her or what we were doing. But if someone fell in my lap and said "hey! Just passing through!" I might have. I was dating, and if I'm dating, I am not in a couple. I'm not ready to answer to someone just yet, even though I really, really like them. Just like I don't want to have to explain why I'm going on a holiday with friends if I'm dating someone, or why I didn't call last night. They don't have to check with me to go bowling with mates and if they don't call me at 10pm for a chat (say it's something we might often do) they don't have to text and apologise.

I think the word "expectations" is something I like to keep on very close to nil, or quite low when dating.

Perhaps that's key to it?

SleepyButch · 01-18-2015, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

Hmn. Tricky. I don't know. The last time I dated someone I quite liked neither of us was asking for monogamy off the bat because we were both the same about it. I told her on the first date that I didn't mind who she dated or slept with and she didn't have to tell me about it unless she wanted to talk to me as a friend about it (which she did. She had an issue and a bad date and wanted to tell me and I listened and we joked. Which actually made me feel closers to her).

After we had been dating a while, we both decided we would like to know if the other person was sleeping with anyone else. She had never done this before and was nervous about it so I said "let's role play it! You tell me and I'll be me!"
We laughed and joked our way through the role play and she felt much better about it.

But about four months along she wanted to meet someone "for sex or for a date, date. Like proper romantic date"
"Proper romantic date"
And I knew at that point we were at different stages and wanted different things, for now. So I bowed out. And it busted me to do it. If she had been meeting someone for a fun casual sex date, I would have felt jealous but nothing I couldn't deal with. Her wanting to meet someone to romance, made me scared and I knew I couldn't do it.
She was deeply upset with me breaking things off and didn't understand. I said that we were at different points and I wouldn't be able to handle it and it would affect us both. But she was welcome to come back at anytime in the future should she choose because I still thought she was the bees knees.
No, apparently, for her, if you ring the bell, it's done.

Dating is hard. I'm not really a big fan of it.

So the possibility of me sleeping with someone would be there. Just highly unlikely. And if I *had* slept with someone while I was dating her, it would have been very casual and of little consequence to how I felt about her or what we were doing. But if someone fell in my lap and said "hey! Just passing through!" I might have. I was dating, and if I'm dating, I am not in a couple. I'm not ready to answer to someone just yet, even though I really, really like them. Just like I don't want to have to explain why I'm going on a holiday with friends if I'm dating someone, or why I didn't call last night. They don't have to check with me to go bowling with mates and if they don't call me at 10pm for a chat (say it's something we might often do) they don't have to text and apologise.

I think the word "expectations" is something I like to keep on very close to nil, or quite low when dating.

Perhaps that's key to it?

I'm curious. I wonder how she would have reacted had you told her you were going on a "romantic date" with someone else? I know you said you don't like the romance up front so whatever the equivalent of that would be for you. We tend to have a totally different reaction when things are happening to us instead of doing them ourselves.

imperfect_cupcake · 01-18-2015, 03:20 PM

Well, by the four month mark we had done what we both had considered a bit of romance. She had taken me to the science museum and a pic nic, held hands with me in the marina, I let her take the reins with costs (I love it but it's so hard for me to do), I took her to me little secret favourite Ethiopian restaurant and wore her favourite dress for her, and we went to the 217 flavour Italian ice cream parlour and then played goofy games in the park.
She was planning to have me to her house for the first time and to make me steak dinner (her thing) and I wanted her to take me on the boat.

So we had started doing what I consider romantic things, as did she. There are quite a few other things I did for her but those are her private, romantic things and I don't want to blather them.

So when I asked her what her reaction would be the other way, she told me she would have struggled quite hard with it if I had and she said she was not sure herself how she would deal. But she was not "there" where she wanted to not have the option herself, so she would just have dealt with it the best she could have and talked it out with me till she felt ok.

I wish, very much, I could have done that. But I think I was just a bit further too past it to agree. The thought that I could very realistically be replaced because that girl lived in the same town as her and thus far easier to take out for brunch, far easier to take to the zoo and far easier to have her out for drinks every Friday night, I felt unhinged by. I told her that and she agreed. It was possible. And she would feel very uncomfortable if I did the same.

It's just she was willing to talk through it, and I wasn't. I don't know if that is a short coming of mine or good for knowing my limits.

Kelt · 01-18-2015, 03:32 PM

Cupcake, I’m sorry that worked out that way for you. I think you bring up a really good point though and it’s something I’ve been learning later in life. Not all femmes dig romance.

This is something that was trained into me from my very beginning. Every movie, show, book on etiquette, OS mentorship, you name it; it was drilled into me as a default. That if I just showed up with a bunch of flowers, hold your hand and buy you ice cream in the park ... That I’d be doing something right and have a crack at screwing up something else.

I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

Shystonefem · 01-18-2015, 03:23 PM

I am femme and you a not want my opinion but...

I don't jump into see and I don't like casual sex. I won't bring up the discussion of exclusiveness an
but I will respond if asked.

I don't date younger butches, I date butches close to my age or a bit older.

I did have a butch think that we were "exclusive". It was awkward. She didn't have my phone number or my email or my address... but she felt like we were a couple.

I don't think it is a butch thing or a femme thing, I think it is a person thing.

I probably won't date anyone if I am interested in someone but if you assume we are exclusive without talking about it, we have a problem.

I guess what I am saying is.... don't expect anything from me unless you discuss it with me. It is when you assume that we have a problem.

I am honest and I am fiercely loyal but, before you get that loyalty - you have to ask first.

01-18-2015, 12:37 PM	#1
imperfect_cupcake Senior Member How Do You Identify?: feminine dolly dyke Preferred Pronoun?: Your Grace Relationship Status: I put my own care first Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In a gauze of mystery Posts: 1,776 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,426 Thanked 9,710 Times in 1,611 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	I'm a 45 year old femme. I live in western Canada, presently. Lower middle class up bringing. Back ground in monogamy, non-monogamy and poly. I generally only date butches (mostly those who are on some scale of genderqueer, including butches who are women and another gender) I was brought up with people experimenting sexually with friends, and sometimes those freindships turned into relationships after a time. That was seen as "normal". When I stopped dating men and bisexual women and started dating butches my whole world was turned upside down with how "conservative" it was, even in comparison to my "straight" relationships with men. I found lesbian communities and butch-femme dyke/queer communities tended to be far more conservative in terms of monogamy than when I was dating men and bisexuals. I had zero understanding of the rituals. Everything moved much too fast for me but I tried quite hard to fit in. After all, that's what dykes do, right? I find the butches (locally, like between here and seattle) who are between say 33 and 40 to be actually pretty relaxed in terms of not rushing into things and being ok with dating casually and having sex in a less ... Ownership... (Not in the fun kinky way)... Kind of way. They seem to get the pace a bit more. I tend not to date people fresh out of relationships because they tend not to have gotten a sense of themselves again yet and still act in that "relationship" kind of way almost right off the bat. Like their gears haven't changed yet. Once I start dating above the age of 40, I find it splits into two camps - ones who are terrified of commitment cause they got married to a complete asshole for 8 years, and those who seem to need monogamy off the bat from the word go, and are really suspect that if I don't want monogamy for the word go, then it means I don't like them enough and that I'm shagging everything I come in contact with. Obviously not everyone thinks that way, as masterfulbutch has explained. But the assumption that I'm a dirty game playing skank because I'm cautious and I like sex seems really unfair and frankly, kind of insulting. Over the past three years, when I have actually really, really liked someone, I don't tend to seek out new people to date but I don't like making a commitment just yet either. So I don't offer monogamy. But I don't know if I really really like someone unless I get to know them. I also dont like doing really romantic stuff when I'm getting to know someone. That feels far too emotionally familiar to me. Since I am also perfectly capable of fun and casual sex, I also like to make sure that we click in bed, without making promises (commitment aka monogamy). I think this is where I may diverge from many. I don't do deeper BDSM edge play in casual getting to know you sex. I know that for many of the people I date that a) they have difficulty with sex and gender and therefore they need greater trust with sex, thus to them it's a bigger deal with greater intimacy attached to it and b) bdsm (and often coming to grips with being genderqueer/butch is also being introduced to them by someone who finally understand that hidden bit they had to hide from their last gf/wife who hated it) is brand new and very challenging to their ideas that have always secretly clashed with "don't hurt women" ethos, so they never acted on. So I think that makes certain acts a far "risker" and "intimate" thing off the bat for them then it does for me. But then I'm also an open book and can easily talk about being an ex sexworker, have a past with sex, drugs and rock and roll (lol tongue in cheek), and I don't find that it requires much emotional "risk" to talk about these things, that are, for many, a big risk to them. I respect their feelings around that, trust me. I usually date and partner with die hard introverts with brains the size of watermelons who over think everything lol but keep things very close to the chest, though they are sociable. I do find certain types of introverts are actually more gentle and open with allowing me the space I need to emotionally get to the point of being ok with monogamy. Others, the ones I tend to get kind of freak out by with pressure and feel very choked/squeezed by are the ones who want to start all the romance from the first step. Perhaps that's part of the problem as well. They like discovery through romance, and I'm more of a discovery through humour and frontal lobe kind of person. Someone giving me a bouquet of flowers on the first date will freak me out, not endear me. Maybe I'm just a shitty romantic, but I think I like to save the deeper feelings and really deeply romantic things for when I can trust someone... And that trust comes in layers and pieces. Being ok with someone taking me out for an ice cream and sitting in the park holding hands is a WAY WAY bigger deal to me than getting-to-know you sex. And I feel really uncomfortable about allowing someone in that far (ice cream and hand holding in the park) before I've had exploratory sex with them first. Most butches - though not all, obviously or I've never of had a relationship in my life and I've had seven long term ones from the age of 14 until now - don't like this progression because it seems for them, sex is a bigger risk because of the dislike of being touched by people in the first place (the ones I date at least), the trouble they have with trusting people before having sex because of gender issues, and the thought that they want romance from the get go. The femmes I have dated and the femmes I have had sex with and the femmes that openly hit on me are far more sexually forward (probably cause they've had to learn to be with being invisible and all) and far more "let's jump in the fart sack now and see what happens later" and seem to be less concerned about commitment and tend to have the attitude of "if we are the best match for each other, we will find that out naturally and it will be obvious as it goes along" they are more "happy if it turns into a relationship, and it's ok if it doesn't" But then the femmes I have slept with and dated have all be very very extroverted so who knows if that's a consideration as well. May or may not be. They also tend to not have much gender issues with being the owner of a cock. As in, they have one in their head, not just strapping on. They also have been "gentleman femmes" in the sense of being studs on the inside and feminine on the outside and not into butches as they think that would be sexually same-same. Again, it's just been my observation. I'm quite happy to be wrong on my anecdotal observations and generalist ideas. I also tend to meet far more "old school" butches and post modern femmes. So that might have something to do with it as well. The trans guys and transmasculines I've met seem to be a bit less monogamy from the get go as well and a bit more post modern about it all but that could be just that I meet those guys through my friends and kinky events than on line. Why don't I meet butches that way? At those same events? Cause the butches at those events that are Dominants tend to be married to their primary partner with one or two play subs already and I'm not really up for being a third. I'd much rather just meet someone who'd like a primary partner or monogamus partner (I am fine with either. I know that bends some people's brains but thing about it as being kind of the same as being bisexual but in a poly/mono kind of way. I'm happy in either situation, both are fine to me) than to become another where there is no possibility for a primary relationship. There was someone, Dapper, but as of last night that's been nixed. But this issue will come up again as it has many times in the past. I really wish there was some kind of way around this issue with people because many of them are really worth while folk that I think are really incredible. But if I feel like my independance is being squelched, my sex drive evaporates completely and I don't want someone touching me. I will actually shrink from it. I get turned off, horribly. If someone gives me my freedom and allows me to slowly make a choice then they become sexier and sexier. It shows me a kind of confidence I find horribly attractive and incredibly sexy. Kind of like the difference between someone telling me they are intimidated about having sex with me (it happens. Too often) and someone saying "hey, I may not know wtf I'm doing the first few times I try something new, but goddamn after some practice, baby, I'm going to be the best shag you ever had" Mreow. But then maybe I just like cocky. And I'm guessing my wanting to have what I see as freedom to slowly make a choice (as they are!!!) is seen as hurtful Game Playing, just like I can't help feeling my sex drive evaporate by feeling controlled by a stranger. I dunno, there must be some kind of middle ground. Last edited by imperfect_cupcake; 01-18-2015 at 12:50 PM.

01-18-2015, 01:29 PM	#3
Kelt Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Beach Butch Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: SoCal Posts: 2,751 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 19,765 Thanked 15,268 Times in 2,538 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Right off the bat I want to say thanks for the novela, because this is the kind of thing that needs clarification and context. I also need to say that my experiences in the dating world are extremely limited and I don’t believe I’ve ever successfully navigated those waters, so anything I say here is pretty much a theoretical exercise. I guess that for me dating would be more of a play the field, see what’s out there with no commitment to anything other than getting to know the other person. Courting would be more of a step towards something more significant and that’s where things like sexual boundaries and what’s in the future discussions happen and maybe decisions about whether or not to continue shape up. IF the above is understood by both parties, huge IF there, then no, I don’t think it would be reasonable to dish out ultimatums, push for commitments, or extended negotiations would apply to the ‘dating’ phase. If the above is not understood it needs to be, because then expectations can be managed. (To be clear I don't think ultimatums are ever appropriate, but I'm answering the original question) I don’t do, and have no desire to do, casual sex. Neither however would I require some full on commitment before a test drive. I am stone and (not speaking for any other stone) come pre-loaded with a box of boundaries when it comes to the physical. That requires trust above a two date level for me. I do understand that casual sex is pretty common for others and would just have to accept that casual means casual for them and not request limits on that while dating because that’s just dating right? Likely easier said than done, but that is my own stuff to deal with. The “lesbian” community jump into commitment tendency that Dapper mentions has been a real problem for me and such that I’m pretty gun shy about even getting into anything at all. This may apply to other communities and I’m just unaware. I have ended up in inadvertent relationships when I was very young and had what I thought were friendships morph into something else without being aware of it until after the fact. (I blame myself for missing social cues). I have received an ultimatum very early in the courting stage and it stopped me in my tracks. I’ve been single for a couple of years and don’t see that changing soon. I don’t know about trends on this front, I only know that I am a butch in no rush, and am at a stage in life where I will not be rushed. I am 53. I have been involved with femmes who were both a dozen years younger than me and a dozen years older than me. I think age differences matter more at the very young end of the scale (20’s) than later. Sleepybutch has some really good points and if I were ‘in the pool’ so to speak would also spend time figuring out more of this up front. Mulling all of this over I see some good perspectives here to think about. Might be back, will definitely keep reading. Thanks for a good thread idea Cupcake! ETA: Since writing this other posts have come up, so I'll likely be back. Last edited by Kelt; 01-18-2015 at 01:32 PM. Reason: ETA

01-18-2015, 03:20 PM	#7
imperfect_cupcake Senior Member How Do You Identify?: feminine dolly dyke Preferred Pronoun?: Your Grace Relationship Status: I put my own care first Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In a gauze of mystery Posts: 1,776 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,426 Thanked 9,710 Times in 1,611 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Well, by the four month mark we had done what we both had considered a bit of romance. She had taken me to the science museum and a pic nic, held hands with me in the marina, I let her take the reins with costs (I love it but it's so hard for me to do), I took her to me little secret favourite Ethiopian restaurant and wore her favourite dress for her, and we went to the 217 flavour Italian ice cream parlour and then played goofy games in the park. She was planning to have me to her house for the first time and to make me steak dinner (her thing) and I wanted her to take me on the boat. So we had started doing what I consider romantic things, as did she. There are quite a few other things I did for her but those are her private, romantic things and I don't want to blather them. So when I asked her what her reaction would be the other way, she told me she would have struggled quite hard with it if I had and she said she was not sure herself how she would deal. But she was not "there" where she wanted to not have the option herself, so she would just have dealt with it the best she could have and talked it out with me till she felt ok. I wish, very much, I could have done that. But I think I was just a bit further too past it to agree. The thought that I could very realistically be replaced because that girl lived in the same town as her and thus far easier to take out for brunch, far easier to take to the zoo and far easier to have her out for drinks every Friday night, I felt unhinged by. I told her that and she agreed. It was possible. And she would feel very uncomfortable if I did the same. It's just she was willing to talk through it, and I wasn't. I don't know if that is a short coming of mine or good for knowing my limits. Last edited by imperfect_cupcake; 01-18-2015 at 03:24 PM.

01-18-2015, 03:32 PM	#8
Kelt Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Beach Butch Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: SoCal Posts: 2,751 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 19,765 Thanked 15,268 Times in 2,538 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Cupcake, I’m sorry that worked out that way for you. I think you bring up a really good point though and it’s something I’ve been learning later in life. Not all femmes dig romance. This is something that was trained into me from my very beginning. Every movie, show, book on etiquette, OS mentorship, you name it; it was drilled into me as a default. That if I just showed up with a bunch of flowers, hold your hand and buy you ice cream in the park ... That I’d be doing something right and have a crack at screwing up something else. I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

01-18-2015, 03:23 PM	#9
Shystonefem Member How Do You Identify?: Stone Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Shy for President Join Date: May 2014 Location: NH Posts: 1,105 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 5,475 Thanked 3,671 Times in 897 Posts Rep Power: 21474849	I am femme and you a not want my opinion but... I don't jump into see and I don't like casual sex. I won't bring up the discussion of exclusiveness an but I will respond if asked. I don't date younger butches, I date butches close to my age or a bit older. I did have a butch think that we were "exclusive". It was awkward. She didn't have my phone number or my email or my address... but she felt like we were a couple. I don't think it is a butch thing or a femme thing, I think it is a person thing. I probably won't date anyone if I am interested in someone but if you assume we are exclusive without talking about it, we have a problem. I guess what I am saying is.... don't expect anything from me unless you discuss it with me. It is when you assume that we have a problem. I am honest and I am fiercely loyal but, before you get that loyalty - you have to ask first.