Question to butches and how they deal with differences in dating

[imperfect_cupcake]

I can get on the same page with someone if I really like them and we are compatible and the chemistry and all that is there. I will get there if someone can be patient. I WANT the relationship, I just don't want it all at once up in my face after a few conversations, or one date, or having fucked once. It REALLY makes me panic. I don't like the pressure and I have trust issues so I like to take my time and really know what I am getting into. And I absolutely believe that takes TIME.

I wish I was better at being precise these days. I feel very rusty. Yes. That.

And yes, I also feel there is something between "totally casual sex" and "now we are in a committed relationship sex." I call it "getting to know you sex." But I find some people are quite insulted by that notion or see it as some kind of threat or that once their back is turned I'm going to shag two other people, compare and contrast shagging techniques on a score card in six different categories and they will wind up lacking in some way.

Which is kind of bizarre. But I guess people feel what they feel. That's really not the way I approach sex, ever. And I NEVER think of someone else when I'm in bed with someone, therefore it's impossible for me to actually compare two people. And that's a bit of a foreign concept to me anyway. I don't compare people. I don't sit and think about who I was with that was the best kisser ever. That seems kind of ... I dunno... What I did when I was first kissing boys and girls when I was 12.

So I dunno. Maybe there is some way for me to feel not pressured and for them to feel not insecure or threatened? And what would that look like?

[Kelt]

Right off the bat I want to say thanks for the novela, because this is the kind of thing that needs clarification and context. I also need to say that my experiences in the dating world are extremely limited and I don’t believe I’ve ever successfully navigated those waters, so anything I say here is pretty much a theoretical exercise.

I guess that for me dating would be more of a play the field, see what’s out there with no commitment to anything other than getting to know the other person. Courting would be more of a step towards something more significant and that’s where things like sexual boundaries and what’s in the future discussions happen and maybe decisions about whether or not to continue shape up.

IF the above is understood by both parties, huge IF there, then no, I don’t think it would be reasonable to dish out ultimatums, push for commitments, or extended negotiations would apply to the ‘dating’ phase. If the above is not understood it needs to be, because then expectations can be managed. (To be clear I don't think ultimatums are ever appropriate, but I'm answering the original question)

I don’t do, and have no desire to do, casual sex. Neither however would I require some full on commitment before a test drive. I am stone and (not speaking for any other stone) come pre-loaded with a box of boundaries when it comes to the physical. That requires trust above a two date level for me. I do understand that casual sex is pretty common for others and would just have to accept that casual means casual for them and not request limits on that while dating because that’s just dating right? Likely easier said than done, but that is my own stuff to deal with.

The “lesbian” community jump into commitment tendency that Dapper mentions has been a real problem for me and such that I’m pretty gun shy about even getting into anything at all. This may apply to other communities and I’m just unaware. I have ended up in inadvertent relationships when I was very young and had what I thought were friendships morph into something else without being aware of it until after the fact. (I blame myself for missing social cues). I have received an ultimatum very early in the courting stage and it stopped me in my tracks. I’ve been single for a couple of years and don’t see that changing soon.

I don’t know about trends on this front, I only know that I am a butch in no rush, and am at a stage in life where I will not be rushed. I am 53. I have been involved with femmes who were both a dozen years younger than me and a dozen years older than me. I think age differences matter more at the very young end of the scale (20’s) than later.

Sleepybutch has some really good points and if I were ‘in the pool’ so to speak would also spend time figuring out more of this up front.

Mulling all of this over I see some good perspectives here to think about. Might be back, will definitely keep reading.

Thanks for a good thread idea Cupcake!

ETA: Since writing this other posts have come up, so I'll likely be back.

[SleepyButch]

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

So I dunno. Maybe there is some way for me to feel not pressured and for them to feel not insecure or threatened? And what would that look like?

I think the only thing you can do is communicate communicate communicate. I am sure you do this. There are some that do not.

If I know what I'm getting in right away, then I can make up my mind if I want to participate or not.

I think you already kind of answered your own question or how it work if it were you and I dating.

You said this up above:

"Thing is with monogamy and sex, I tend not to have multiple sex partners, it's very very rare I do. However, I don't like making the commitment of promising not to, before I know the person. It doesn't mean I'm going to go sleep with three other people."

If I knew that this, I don't think I'd be threatened or insecure. I guess it depends on how much you want to share about this with someone new.

ETA if someone doesn't accept you for wanting or not wanting something, are they really worth your time in the long run?

[imperfect_cupcake]

If I knew that this, I don't think I'd be threatened or insecure. I guess it depends on how much you want to share about this with someone new.

Hmn. Tricky. I don't know. The last time I dated someone I quite liked neither of us was asking for monogamy off the bat because we were both the same about it. I told her on the first date that I didn't mind who she dated or slept with and she didn't have to tell me about it unless she wanted to talk to me as a friend about it (which she did. She had an issue and a bad date and wanted to tell me and I listened and we joked. Which actually made me feel closer and safer with her).

After we had been dating a while, we both decided we would like to know if the other person was sleeping with anyone else. She had never done this before and was nervous about it so I said "let's role play it! You tell me and I'll be me!"
We laughed and joked our way through the role play and she felt much better about it.

But about four months along she wanted to meet someone "for sex or for a date, date. Like proper romantic date?"
"Proper romantic date"
And I knew at that point we were at different stages and wanted different things, for now. So I bowed out. And it busted me to do it. If she had been meeting someone for a fun casual sex date, I would have felt jealous but nothing I couldn't deal with. Her wanting to meet someone to romance, made me scared and I knew I couldn't do it.
She was deeply upset with me breaking things off and didn't understand. I said that we were at different points and I wouldn't be able to handle it and it would affect us both. But she was welcome to come back at anytime in the future should she choose because I still thought she was the bees knees.
No, apparently, for her, if you ring the bell, it's done.

Dating is hard. I'm not really a big fan of it.

So the possibility of me sleeping with someone would be there. Just highly unlikely. And if I *had* slept with someone while I was dating her, it would have been very casual and of little consequence to how I felt about her or what we were doing. But if someone fell in my lap and said "hey! Just passing through!" I might have. I was dating, and if I'm dating, I am not in a couple. I'm not ready to answer to someone just yet, even though I really, really like them. Just like I don't want to have to explain why I'm going on a holiday with friends if I'm dating someone, or why I didn't call last night. They don't have to check with me to go bowling with mates and if they don't call me at 10pm for a chat (say it's something we might often do) they don't have to text and apologise.

I think the word "expectations" is something I like to keep on very close to nil, or quite low when dating.

Perhaps that's key to it?

[SleepyButch]

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

Hmn. Tricky. I don't know. The last time I dated someone I quite liked neither of us was asking for monogamy off the bat because we were both the same about it. I told her on the first date that I didn't mind who she dated or slept with and she didn't have to tell me about it unless she wanted to talk to me as a friend about it (which she did. She had an issue and a bad date and wanted to tell me and I listened and we joked. Which actually made me feel closers to her).

After we had been dating a while, we both decided we would like to know if the other person was sleeping with anyone else. She had never done this before and was nervous about it so I said "let's role play it! You tell me and I'll be me!"
We laughed and joked our way through the role play and she felt much better about it.

But about four months along she wanted to meet someone "for sex or for a date, date. Like proper romantic date"
"Proper romantic date"
And I knew at that point we were at different stages and wanted different things, for now. So I bowed out. And it busted me to do it. If she had been meeting someone for a fun casual sex date, I would have felt jealous but nothing I couldn't deal with. Her wanting to meet someone to romance, made me scared and I knew I couldn't do it.
She was deeply upset with me breaking things off and didn't understand. I said that we were at different points and I wouldn't be able to handle it and it would affect us both. But she was welcome to come back at anytime in the future should she choose because I still thought she was the bees knees.
No, apparently, for her, if you ring the bell, it's done.

Dating is hard. I'm not really a big fan of it.

So the possibility of me sleeping with someone would be there. Just highly unlikely. And if I *had* slept with someone while I was dating her, it would have been very casual and of little consequence to how I felt about her or what we were doing. But if someone fell in my lap and said "hey! Just passing through!" I might have. I was dating, and if I'm dating, I am not in a couple. I'm not ready to answer to someone just yet, even though I really, really like them. Just like I don't want to have to explain why I'm going on a holiday with friends if I'm dating someone, or why I didn't call last night. They don't have to check with me to go bowling with mates and if they don't call me at 10pm for a chat (say it's something we might often do) they don't have to text and apologise.

I think the word "expectations" is something I like to keep on very close to nil, or quite low when dating.

Perhaps that's key to it?

I'm curious. I wonder how she would have reacted had you told her you were going on a "romantic date" with someone else? I know you said you don't like the romance up front so whatever the equivalent of that would be for you. We tend to have a totally different reaction when things are happening to us instead of doing them ourselves.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Well, by the four month mark we had done what we both had considered a bit of romance. She had taken me to the science museum and a pic nic, held hands with me in the marina, I let her take the reins with costs (I love it but it's so hard for me to do), I took her to me little secret favourite Ethiopian restaurant and wore her favourite dress for her, and we went to the 217 flavour Italian ice cream parlour and then played goofy games in the park.
She was planning to have me to her house for the first time and to make me steak dinner (her thing) and I wanted her to take me on the boat.

So we had started doing what I consider romantic things, as did she. There are quite a few other things I did for her but those are her private, romantic things and I don't want to blather them.

So when I asked her what her reaction would be the other way, she told me she would have struggled quite hard with it if I had and she said she was not sure herself how she would deal. But she was not "there" where she wanted to not have the option herself, so she would just have dealt with it the best she could have and talked it out with me till she felt ok.

I wish, very much, I could have done that. But I think I was just a bit further too past it to agree. The thought that I could very realistically be replaced because that girl lived in the same town as her and thus far easier to take out for brunch, far easier to take to the zoo and far easier to have her out for drinks every Friday night, I felt unhinged by. I told her that and she agreed. It was possible. And she would feel very uncomfortable if I did the same.

It's just she was willing to talk through it, and I wasn't. I don't know if that is a short coming of mine or good for knowing my limits.

[Kelt]

Cupcake, I’m sorry that worked out that way for you. I think you bring up a really good point though and it’s something I’ve been learning later in life. Not all femmes dig romance.

This is something that was trained into me from my very beginning. Every movie, show, book on etiquette, OS mentorship, you name it; it was drilled into me as a default. That if I just showed up with a bunch of flowers, hold your hand and buy you ice cream in the park ... That I’d be doing something right and have a crack at screwing up something else.

I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

[SleepyButch]

Originally Posted by Kelt

Cupcake, I’m sorry that worked out that way for you. I think you bring up a really good point though and it’s something I’ve been learning later in life. Not all femmes dig romance.

This is something that was trained into me from my very beginning. Every movie, show, book on etiquette, OS mentorship, you name it; it was drilled into me as a default. That if I just showed up with a bunch of flowers, hold your hand and buy you ice cream in the park ... That I’d be doing something right and have a crack at screwing up something else.

I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

Hard to believe that not everyone loves romance right? I now make it a point to ask if she likes romance because it's just something I do a lot without thinking about it. I think if someone doesn't want romance, they are not for me. It's hard to retrain yourself into not doing things especially when I get a lot of pleasure from being romantic.

Looking at it from cupcake's point of view from her words on this thread, I think that sometimes right away, things can get hidden behind the blanket of romance, meaning you can get caught up in it all and maybe not really see what is in front of you. So not that you can't be romantic but save the romance for later when you are trusting each other more and know each other better?

Who knows. All I really do know is that getting to know me is getting to know my romantic side and it tends to come out right away.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Oh I do like romance, kelt. But not at first. I think it's too personal and intimate from someone I don't know. It scares me. It's like someone breathing in my face and asking all about my feeeeeeelings if I don't know them.

I actually am old fashioned once I am in a relationship. In ways that are very... Particular.

However, I'm just a very emotionally reserved person when it comes to deeper feelings and certain intimacies. I can verbally spill my guts about who I am, all my history and I'm not a private person about details of my life, but you want to know my deeper feelings?

Get to know me first. Be my friend. Show me you can be my friend before you can be my lover.

This gives me confidence that if something needs discussing, or something happens, you can put certain romantic feelings aside and treat me like a cherished friend first. To me, that is the most trusted thing anyone can do for me. And I often put my feelings of jealousy, ego, hurt, pissy snit aside to speak to a partner as a *friend* first, once I trust them.

I have friendships that have lasted for 32 years. None of my relationships have. So Given that my friendships are the most valuable thing I know of, when a partner that treats me like a friend first, then they have my trust. Once I know that they see me as a valuable friend and person first, *then* I like all the romance. Because then I know them well enough for that level of intimacy.

But I can also find a supermarket sandwich in a carpark the rain very romantic if I'm with the right person. I can think of a very romantic afternoon spent laughing in her car with tesco tuna fish sandwiches, sitting in a car park with the rain leaking in the back. There doesn't need to be flowers and chocolates in that memory. It still makes me smile.

I'm not really a flowers and chocolate girl romance girl. I'm a science museum and divey pub romance girl. Everyone has different ideas about what romance is.

Mine just happens to be more geek than traditional princess.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Kelt

Cupcake, I’m sorry that worked out that way for you. I think you bring up a really good point though and it’s something I’ve been learning later in life. Not all femmes dig romance.

This is something that was trained into me from my very beginning. Every movie, show, book on etiquette, OS mentorship, you name it; it was drilled into me as a default. That if I just showed up with a bunch of flowers, hold your hand and buy you ice cream in the park ... That I’d be doing something right and have a crack at screwing up something else.

I’ve learned that romance is a spectrum just like everything else and that part of learning about someone new is to figure out this bit too. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only older butch that has that wired up wrong. I still love to do the OS rituals, but I can now see that not all will appreciate it and it’s not personal, just a different view.

Romantic gestures are nice, and a way to show appreciation, love, etc.. It's when those gestures or "love tasks" become a way to want to get all weird and proprietary.. Also, (sometimes and this is where I think folks get all wigged out) Femmes want to be the one's leading the romance or want to be able to express romantic gestures which are for some reason only assigned to butch/masculine/Top/Boss people....

Also, like you stated someone's view of romance is hearts and flowers, where as for others it can be museums and fuck fests.... When things don't stay "binary" is when I feel that people get all oogy and weird, and then somehow someone ends up being uncomfortable...


I am hoping I can communicate what I am muddling in my mind, it's been a while since I have had to type out my thoughts...

[Shystonefem]

I am femme and you a not want my opinion but...

I don't jump into see and I don't like casual sex. I won't bring up the discussion of exclusiveness an
but I will respond if asked.

I don't date younger butches, I date butches close to my age or a bit older.

I did have a butch think that we were "exclusive". It was awkward. She didn't have my phone number or my email or my address... but she felt like we were a couple.

I don't think it is a butch thing or a femme thing, I think it is a person thing.

I probably won't date anyone if I am interested in someone but if you assume we are exclusive without talking about it, we have a problem.

I guess what I am saying is.... don't expect anything from me unless you discuss it with me. It is when you assume that we have a problem.

I am honest and I am fiercely loyal but, before you get that loyalty - you have to ask first.