Veiling, Burqas and Western Feminism

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Nat

A friend of mine had a recent facebook rant after running across a woman in a burqa. The burqa'd woman was walking with a woman wearing a khimar. My friend said she was surprised when they walked by that they were both speaking unaccented American English. While she didn't take issue with the khimar, she had a real problem with the obliteration of the burqa'd woman's face - she felt like the woman was being robbed of her humanity.

I think it's a lot easier to look at another culture and ascribe victim/oppressor meaning to different customs, and I even think there's a fair amount of projection in doing so. I imagine a woman can wear a burqa from a feminist, empowered place or from a very disempowered place or from a purely spiritual place, etc.

Hi Nat, and thank you for starting this thread. I was thinking some of the same thoughts after reading about the move to outlaw wearing of the burqa in France, and wrestling a little bit with the whole idea.

I should start out by saying that I'm not Muslim, and I do consider myself a feminist...although my definition of that has sometimes not fit neatly with the definitions of others.

Your sentence that I highlighted in red is really what speaks to me. I get so tired of people telling others how to live, think or behave. A woman wearing a burqa may very well be forced to wear it and be hating it....or she may embrace it for reasons of her own and revel in it. We won't know unless we ask her...and no doubt the reaction will vary from woman to woman. I don't believe it's our place to choose how she dresses any more than it would be for her to choose how we do.

For me, the essence of feminism is that women should be free to express themselves, however that looks...steel toed boots or 4 inch heels, work outside the home or inside it, dressed modestly or barely dressed at all.

When I was growing up my mother was an uber-feminist...and still is. For her, everything traditional was an instrument of oppression and would not be tolerated. I couldn't learn to type, couldn't own a Barbie doll, was forced into woodshop in school (which I despised) and was belittled for my dream of being either a hairdresser or a home economics teacher. Under her definition of feminism, women had to be employed, preferably professionals, strident, unyielding, aggressive and probably not married or bearing children.

Fast forward four decades, and I have found a happy medium for myself. I have a good corporate job (but I'm a cog in the wheel, not a vp), an advanced degree, and I work from home...which allows me to be the kind of mom I want to be, and to indulge my own love of keeping a house, cooking and baking. I like being home. Yes, I could make more money and be more "successful" (by her definition) if I was more aggressive, pushed harder, worked harder...and basically acted unlike myself. I choose not to. That's my brand of feminism.

So...back to the original topic (sorry... I'm wordy)....I can easily see how a woman would embrace the burqa. Perhaps for spiritual or religious reasons, perhaps for a feeling of personal safety, perhaps as a way to honor her own body or her partner...I can see many reasons why that would be the case. And all of them seem like valid and understandable reasons to me. In a world that objectifies women's bodies, a burqa would be a barrier against that kind of judgement...and a place to be free of that. I get tired of men looking at my breasts, my butt...and I often wish there was a way to just turn that off. I am inherently physically modest outside of my own intimate relationship with my partner. No...not a prude....but you won't see a pic of me showing cleavage, you won't even see me in a bikini at the beach. I just don't. My body is mine and my partner's...and not for public consumption.

While some feminists may decry the burqa and say it should be not be allowed (as France is trying to do), to me they are violating the most fundamental principle of feminism...that women should be allowed to choose for themselves what they want and how they choose to live.

[waxnrope]

the question for me, is what goes on behind the veil? what utterances, spoken in secret, that a lip reader could decipher? is a mood, an expression, hidden from view? and, as Trinh T. Minh ha implies (and, no I do not have the citation, but if you PM me, I will go and find it), what of the power of gazing and not being noticed doing so, nor gaining the reciprocal look?
"western" feminism, indeed ...

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by JustJo

For me, the essence of feminism is that women should be free to express themselves, however that looks...steel toed boots or 4 inch heels, work outside the home or inside it, dressed modestly or barely dressed at all.

Exactly. Feminism is about power and choice.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Exactly. Feminism is about power and choice.

Oh, and I wanted to come back to say something else:

For a white woman to tell a brown woman that her culture/customs/religion/whatever is wrong and needs to be changed is waaaaaaaaaay fucked up.

It's not only anti-feminist when men tell women what they can or can not do with their bodies/lives. It's also anti-feminist when women do that to each other - even if they think they are doing it in the name of feminism.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Oh, and I wanted to come back to say something else:

For a white woman to tell a brown woman that her culture/customs/religion/whatever is wrong and needs to be changed is waaaaaaaaaay fucked up.

It's not only anti-feminist when men tell women what they can or can not do with their bodies/lives. It's also anti-feminist when women do that to each other - even if they think they are doing it in the name of feminism.

Absolutely! It's ironic to me (in a gut wrenching way) that we are frequently our own oppressors in this manner.

So often we (general "we") forget that our standards, morals, values, beliefs, etc. are just that - ours. Not right, not true, not correct, not "the way it should be" - just our own. And everyone is entitled to their own....not ours.

[Enchantress]

I spent several years studying Islam when I was younger.

Most people assume that the woman is being forced to cover herself, but in reality most do it by choice (in my experience).

My then best friend converted to Islam to marry her husband (who is Pakastani). She never covered herself unless she was in the mosque, and then only a loose head scarf (I did this as well when in the mosque).

After many years, she herself decided to wear a head covering daily. Not because she was pressured or hounded to do so. But because it became a part of what she sought and who she was.

In Islam covering oneself is not meant to be demeaning. In fact, the thought is that a woman will be treated equally.

Islam does not set out to lessen a womans power (although any religion can and is skewed by those with nefarious motives), instead a woman is revered.


There is no mention in the Koran of a woman not working, being able to own land or things or not being able to drive. On the contrary.

All of these mandates have been set forth by misogynist males who seek to control (all) not enlighten.

A woman does not forfit her right to be a feminist (nor should she be looked upon in such a way by others) simply because she chooses to cover herself.

It is her right.

With that said (and as I've stated above) there are some who do so because they fear retribution, from either a husband, father or brother. This to me is ever so sad.

Unfortunately, due to extremists, a religion that holds much beauty has been marred.

On one last note: Throughout history, women have covered themselves, even in Christianity. Just a bit of food for thought.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Enchantress

I spent several years studying Islam when I was younger.

Most people assume that the woman is being forced to cover herself, but in reality most do it by choice (in my experience).

My then best friend converted to Islam to marry her husband (who is Pakastani). She never covered herself unless she was in the mosque, and then only a loose head scarf (I did this as well when in the mosque).

After many years, she herself decided to wear a head covering daily. Not because she was pressured or hounded to do so. But because it became a part of what she sought and who she was.

In Islam covering oneself is not meant to be demeaning. In fact, the thought is that a woman will be treated equally.

Islam does not set out to lessen a womans power (although any religion can and is skewed by those with nefarious motives), instead a woman is revered.


There is no mention in the Koran of a woman not working, being able to own land or things or not being able to drive. On the contrary.

All of these mandates have been set forth by misogynist males who seek to control (all) not enlighten.

A woman does not forfit her right to be a feminist (nor should she be looked upon in such a way by others) simply because she chooses to cover herself.

It is her right.

With that said (and as I've stated above) there are some who do so because they fear retribution, from either a husband, father or brother. This to me is ever so sad.

Unfortunately, due to extremists, a religion that holds much beauty has been marred.

On one last note: Throughout history, women have covered themselves, even in Christianity. Just a bit of food for thought.

When I was a young woman I worked for a Muslim family. I remember talking to the sister and saying how sad it was that women were veiled. She gave me the gentle slap down by pointing out how privilged it was for me to judge another woman and her choice. She explained to me that many Muslim women feel profoundly sorry for and appalled at the way American women dress. They see us as oppressed because they view the dress as being directed for and by men for their pleasure. I had never thought about it this way and it has stuck with me.

[Rook]

What most westerners seem to Omit, and I find this rather interesting..
Muslim Men have their "Modesty" rules as well..
I believe it was Enchantress who mentioned working rights, and Land owning plus Driving in womyn's case....
I love that part, it's VERY convenient for so-called Religious men to go Blank on these little tidbits for womyn, which is another reason why I ignore their Rantings, they claim out of one corner of the Mouth to Follow the Prophets example, and through the other corner they pick and choose whats good for their own purposes.
Not all men are this way, but, unfortunately the ones who Do this, are often in a position of "Power"
Thankfully, in some Islamic countries, womyn are given certain amount of Power, mostly because of who their Family is/was {Bhutto for example}, even then, they're not Immune to fundamentalists Twisting Islam for their own convenience, but then, from what I've studied, Islam isn't the only "Organized Religion" to do this...
Whether western Feminism chooses to agree/Accept this portion in History or Not, or are a bit uneducated in the matter is a bit distressing, but easy to shrug off considering how....prejudiced some Feminists are..not All..just..Some..
Islam has mandated since the early 7th Century certain rights for Womyn..
Take for instance, Marriage..
A womyn must consent to Any marriage contract, or refuse..yes, contract...piece of paper, specifics on what the bride must do, and Not do, Likewise for the Husband..in said contract if the Bride is rather young, the Husband *if the father of the Bride is knowledgeable he'll push this part* cannot touch the Bride until she reaches their country's age of consent {this lil part is mostly when the marriage is pure politics}..
If she's quiet, that's an automatic consent to the marriage...
She also has had Inheritance rights long before the suffragists marched.
She can work out of the House, and her wages are hers and only hers to use as she deems fit, within reason.
She can also divorce {it's slightly more difficult than a man's ability*he only needs 4 witnesses and say "I divorce you" 3 times*, but she can}
In Islam, a womyn has the same right to Education as a Man {That shit they pulled in Afghanistan is a crock}.
I'll take it a Step further...
The Prophets 1st wife, Khadijah was a very Prosperous businesswomyn...
At the time, he simply tagged along, he did learn a lot from her as well..
After Khadijah's death, he remarried...a few times..the best example I can give is Aisha bint Abu Bakr, she was Perfect, Mother of all Muslims, and also the cause and root for many critics against Islam..
Her age is irrelevant, given 3 reasons...
a} Although the marriage contract was signed, she stayed with her Family for a few years before the Prophet took her to his dwellings...
b} If he were to have traumatized her in any way, she wouldn't be devoted, she wouldnt be loyal, and yeah Abu Bakr would've probably broken any ties with him.
c} During those times? the age she had was a common age to marry, that doesn't mean it's proper even then, but almost every society has their own structures, what one thinks is Heinous and Appalling, to the other it's perfectly normal..
Unfortunately some pervs like to use this for their own gain w/o actually bothering with the Political purpose and conditions for her Marriage.
She is known as a well-versed Scholar, the Legit source of many Hadith and she was a helluva Warrior, for the most part.She led the armies at one point in the Dispute of Succession, which to this Very day Separates Sunni's from Shi'a.{the division between Sunni and Shi'a is almost purely Political}

My point?
Just because the womyn's veiled doesn't always mean she's Oppressed.
I've seen Niqaabi nurses, Lawyers, Teachers...
Their Hijab can tell you their Status in the Community {Political, royalty, Tribal, etc}, but that's mostly the cultural side.
In some cases & I have found this very curious...
I've seen veiled Athletes, in the Olympics....
I do agree though about the Driving issue in Saudiya...Let's see if you can see why...
Imagine a woman, fully veiled..Burqah, Niqaab, Abaya..etc...
Behind the wheel, very fast Truck {I dont think Saudi has enforced speed limits last I checked, I could be wrong, don't hold my word as Gospel}, probably windows Down since a/c is busted {and she lives in the desert!!!}
Yes she can see thru that Mesh, or thru the Slits in the material....
What about the rest of the Flowing, Billowing cloth that flaps in the winds wake?....
Believe me, I've tested this in the U.S., I took a friend, she was modestly dressed...
At 15 MPH, she was already fighting with her Hijab {partial veil}, pinning it somehow behind her head...
At 45 MPH?...windows down?...Highway?..I was pretty much praying, hoping we didn't encounter a Mac Truck, or 5-0.
BEGGED her to park at the rest stop, and remove her outter garments if she wanted me to sit next to her again....ever.

I agree wholeheartedly with Enchantress..
All these "Oppressive" actions to stifle women from Education, Jobs, Land, and Status in some countries is just one more way to shout all over the world {Including Islamic} "I got a tiny Winky, my sister pissed me off, and my mother allowed my father to fill my head with horseshit & tales of easy women."
Btw, Female circumcision is purely Cultural under the false guise of Islam...
Besides, men, for the most part also have to wear a masculine type "Veil", or at the Least a skullcap... their shirts have to be a certain length...
And if they wear shorts, it must cover the Knees a lil..
don't believe me?
Check out most of the Saudi royal Men {they're not wearing that to brag about the status, mostly...I say mostly cuz some will happily wear elaborate Thobes, but then..they're filthy rich}, The king of Jordan, Syria, most of the Middle East... and yeah, check out Qaddafi..
Try touching their "veil" {keffiyeh}...u might as well stuff your hand down the backside of their pants and smile with a camera "say cheese !!!"
It's almost as much Cultural as Religious....

However, I will say this...
Just because they're Veiled..And appear modest..?
doesn't really mean they are.
You can be Modest/Devoted/spiritual and wear every day clothes compared to how some behave.

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...." (Quran 24:30,31).

[Enchantress]

You're absolutely correct!

I did not bring up the males roles in Islam due to the fact that the initial discussion was in regard to feminism.

Men are definitely held to a certain standard of modesty as well.

During my years discovering and studying amongst those who practiced Islam I never ran across unhappiness within the community.

Thank you for the information you've shared!

[Rook]

My pleasure, Enchantress, welcome..
I can understand why you stayed on the Feminist subject, I thought the same earlier today..
I did, however, see a small window of opportunity to draw a comparison tonight, w/o derailing the Thread {or..trying not to}..

[Martina]

i am glad that it's not illegal to wear any of the above and that women can do as they choose in this country. The fights over this in Belgium, France, and Italy make me grateful for our constitution. i do not believe the Europeans when they argue that it is a public safety concern.

Personally, i do not want to see women veiled. i do not like it. But i do not live these women's lives.

What i have done in the past is give money to organizations that support freedom for women in regions where it seems like there is little. i have given money to an organization that builds schools for girls, and i used to contribute to a group that outfitted girls' soccer teams in North Africa.