Veiling, Burqas and Western Feminism

[dreadgeek]

I think that the core issue is whether or not a woman has a *choice* in the matter. If any given woman wants to wear a burqa and it is her choice--and it is freely made, not coerced in any way--then I see no problem. It's what she wants to do. If, however, she is being coerced then I see that as highly problematic. I think that it is problematic even if her culture says 'all women must do this'.

I have to say, I'm far *less* sanguine about the idea that cultures trump individuals because if I had been born 10 or 20 years earlier, I would have been born into a culture that said that I, as a black child, could not go to school with white children. That was the culture of the South--that was the argument that white segregationists made was that 'Northerners are comin' down here and trying to change our culture'. The fact that black people were the targets of that culture disappeared. In the same way, I think that we Western feminists betray the core principles of feminism--that women are human beings--when we say "well, I would not want to live in that culture but if that woman's culture says it's okay then who am I to say..."

Either human beings are entitled to be treated with dignity because of some inherent humanness or we aren't. If we aren't, if our right to self-determination is based upon the culture we are born into then NO group has a leg to stand on when arguing that they are oppressed. After all, isn't it their *culture* that says that they should be oppressed?

So whether a woman wears a veil has to, for me, be about whether she has any choice to NOT wear the veil. If she can and do so without harm then that's no problem. If, however, not wearing the veil would resort in her being subject to social sanction then I have to stand with her as an *individual* and not a representative type of a certain culture.

Put another way, how far are people willing to take the 'you can't criticize another culture' meme? To think about this in a visceral sense I ask you to think of two scenarios:

Scenario 1: It is 1963. You are from England. You observe the treatment of blacks in the American South. Should you criticize it? It's not *your* culture. If you should, on what basis do you do so? If you should not, why not?

Scenario 2: A non-Western culture says that boys should be educated but to educate girls is a waste of time at best and an abomination at worst. Is it wrong to criticize that culture? If not, why not? If it is wrong to criticize that culture, why is it wrong?

One last question: what if we were to take a giant step backward in this country and homosexuality were made illegal. Would you want human rights groups in, say, Europe to speak out on our behalf or would you want them to mind their own business since American culture and European culture aren't precisely the same thing?

[betenoire]

I think you misunderstood me, honestly. I wasn't saying that the bottom line is that if it's someone's culture we should stfu and mind our own business. I was saying that part of the reason that some people are so freaked out by women who cover their heads/faces is because they are freaked out IN GENERAL by that other culture. Just like people lose their shit over someone carrying a kirpan. You can't deny the truth in that.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I think that the core issue is whether or not a woman has a *choice* in the matter. If any given woman wants to wear a burqa and it is her choice--and it is freely made, not coerced in any way--then I see no problem. It's what she wants to do.

Which is exactly what I was driving at in my first post.

Either human beings are entitled to be treated with dignity because of some inherent humanness or we aren't. If we aren't, if our right to self-determination is based upon the culture we are born into then NO group has a leg to stand on when arguing that they are oppressed. After all, isn't it their *culture* that says that they should be oppressed?

No denying that some women who cover up are forced into that position - but that does not mean that de facto every single woman who covers up has done so against her will.

As for your questions, my only answer is that there is a pretty huge difference between systematic or legal bullshit - and an individual choice.

Equating my assertion (that one cannot presume that each time a woman covers up it's because she is oppressed) with your examples feels pretty far reaching to me.

[turasultana]

In my Brooklyn neighborhood, many women cover their heads - not full Burqua but Hijab or some other variation (I'm not familiar enough to be sure which of the images it matches). Many wear it with traditional dress, but the especially the younger girls where it with jeans and sneakers and are being silly laughing like all teenagers on their way to school. Some with mothers not wearing it, some with, some with friends covering their heads, some not. For some maybe their father insists, but for some I'm sure it's a choice as well. But they do occasionally get looks or head shakes as if to say "poor thing."

My neighborhood also has orthodox and hasidic jews, and all those women (married at least) cover their heads as well, but with wigs, not scarfs. How come it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue that they cover? I don't see many debates on whether jewish women are being forced to cover their heads. It seems we assume they're doing it by choice. Just a thought.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by turasultana

My neighborhood also has orthodox and hasidic jews, and all those women (married at least) cover their heads as well, but with wigs, not scarfs. How come it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue that they cover? I don't see many debates on whether jewish women are being forced to cover their heads. It seems we assume they're doing it by choice. Just a thought.

And an interesting thought turasultana...I've never heard anyone say a word about hasidic jewish women and their wigs. Perhaps because they don't cover the face, but not all veiling covers the face either, and those women and girls (as you pointed out) still get the "poor thing" reaction.

I do appreciate the points you raised dreadgeek, and am flailing around a bit with words to describe my thoughts. I guess, for me, it boils down to if it is an individual choice or if the behavior or circumstance is forced upon the individual. If an individual is making a choice ...whether to veil or not, to go to a single-race or single-gender school, to subscribe to traditional values (no matter how they may appear to those outside of that culture), then I think we need to respect their choice.

If people are being oppressed and asking for help, then that's a completely different issue in my mind.

Not being a Muslim woman, I don't know what pressures they face to veil or not...from culture, from religious leaders, from family. I'm guessing (perhaps wrongly) that women in the U.S., Canada, France, etc. are making that choice at least somewhat freely...although I'm open to hearing from anyone in that position that I'm wrong on that.

What offends me is when we decide (as the government of France is attempting to do) that women may not wear the burqa...regardless of their individual choice. It would be the same as legislating that women could not wear men's clothing, or making bras illegal, or any number of other ridiculous scenarios.

[Rook]

Nat,
thanks for asking..
Not many do bother with asking and 99% of the time consider it Oppressive.
In a lot of cases, it could be.
But, they're well within the Minority.
I was raised a Muslim, I chose for myself when to Wear my Abaya/Niqab, using the Following verse

O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters, and the women of the faithful, to draw their wraps over them. They will thus be recognised and no harm will come to them. God is forgiving and kind.33:59

I say I chose , because I've yet to menstruate, so my Muslim Relatives were rather Lenient, despite being Salafi.
That and the fact I chose to wear an Abaya/Niqab, should say a lot about where I stand with both the Veils & Feminism.
Depending on the "School of Thought" the womyn was raised in or converted to etc., is the type of Veil you'll see in the Islamic world/community.
I no longer Veil though, I'll explain why in a moment..
But when I did, yes, there's a Huge Huge "Mystery".."What color's the hair", "Pink lips or deep red?".."Pimples?".."Fugly or knockout?"
The only ones who could answer all those were my Immediate Blood Relatives, whomever I dated {yeah, from time to time even my girl asked, if she wasn't a Muslim, being satisfied with my answer, they didnt care after}, and of course the women within the Segregated Mosques I attended.
After much..hmm..soulsearching, I stopped mostly because of the Imams stance on Lesbianism, I figured "If I'm going to hell, might as well have fun on the way"{Despite there being Zero mention of Lesbian in the Qu'ran}.
It never oppressed me, it actually felt Liberating, Protected out in Public, gave me a Unique sense of Privacy..
I did realize though, ever since Sept. 11, if you're wearing a Burqah/Chador/Abaya/Niqab, you're actually bringing much More attention to your presence.
The purpose of the Veiling is Modesty, not to attract attention and let yourself be known as Devout.
After 9/11, that went out the window in the U.S.{And Puerto Rico}.
Sad, but true.
However, every time I see a Full Niqaabi, I do feel a twang of Envy, and sincere Admiration.{Not to mention, some are cute when they unveil in the Mosque}

On the other subject..
I do agree, it's slightly Hypocritical to be Feminist and dictate another womyn's choice to Veil, Islamic or not, full face, or Partial covering.
I've yet to hear any Devoted catholic criticize Nuns {They don't cover their Face, but Many nuns, not only Veil, but very seldom are allowed out of their Cloister ...Feel free to look up Purdah}
As well as Haredi women and their own Coverings...
Or Protestants demand Amish/Mennonite womyn be given choice to wear pants and straw hats rather than their Bonnet and plain Dresses...
The issue in France chafes my ass, often...
Along with Switzerland, and their banning of Minarets {They should look into their Cathedrals also, Bells make Horrendous Noises sometimes.}

The more Liberal the Muslim's "School" is, the more is allowed..
Whereas, the more Conservative, the more Covered.
I've seen Niqaabi's help in the Mosque Kitchen side by side with a partially Veiled friend.
Some veiling are Cultural rather than Religious, but those, if you got a trained eye, U can distinguish quickly.

Besides, it can't be all that bad...From an Outsiders view, who knows..
You{in general} might be dissing a veiled Butch

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I think you misunderstood me, honestly. I wasn't saying that the bottom line is that if it's someone's culture we should stfu and mind our own business. I was saying that part of the reason that some people are so freaked out by women who cover their heads/faces is because they are freaked out IN GENERAL by that other culture. Just like people lose their shit over someone carrying a kirpan. You can't deny the truth in that.

I may have misunderstood you because I got the part about choice. I didn't think the issue in contention was whether or not women had the right to choose to wear a veil--I took that as a given that there is no one here who would contend that women can't make the free choice to wear a veil.

For a white woman to tell a brown woman that her culture/customs/religion/whatever is wrong and needs to be changed is waaaaaaaaaay fucked up.

I was reacting to this statement. It depends upon the situation. Reading this as it appears, it seems you are saying that it's wrong--full-stop--for a white woman to tell a brown woman that her culture is wrong, etc. I can't agree with that because if it's wrong in one dimension--for a white woman to tell a brown woman that--then it's wrong in the other direction as well. There are things that are just screwed up no matter where it's happening or who it's happening to.

I wonder how many feminists actually believe that *any* woman wearing a veil is oppressed. A lot of what I hear and read from feminists--when we criticize women covering--is criticism of a culture that says to women that their very presence in society is problematic, that they are temptresses who must be covered up for the sake of men and social order. I imagine that there are some Western feminists who jump to conclusions that no woman would freely choose to veil but I don't know too many who do jump to that conclusion.

At any rate, my response was specifically about the quote immediately prior to my response. If the culture says that educating women is wrong and it just so happens that the culture saying it is brown, I think it is entirely appropriate for any feminist, from any culture, to say "hold on. That is injustice."