Veiling, Burqas and Western Feminism

[turasultana]

In my Brooklyn neighborhood, many women cover their heads - not full Burqua but Hijab or some other variation (I'm not familiar enough to be sure which of the images it matches). Many wear it with traditional dress, but the especially the younger girls where it with jeans and sneakers and are being silly laughing like all teenagers on their way to school. Some with mothers not wearing it, some with, some with friends covering their heads, some not. For some maybe their father insists, but for some I'm sure it's a choice as well. But they do occasionally get looks or head shakes as if to say "poor thing."

My neighborhood also has orthodox and hasidic jews, and all those women (married at least) cover their heads as well, but with wigs, not scarfs. How come it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue that they cover? I don't see many debates on whether jewish women are being forced to cover their heads. It seems we assume they're doing it by choice. Just a thought.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by turasultana

My neighborhood also has orthodox and hasidic jews, and all those women (married at least) cover their heads as well, but with wigs, not scarfs. How come it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue that they cover? I don't see many debates on whether jewish women are being forced to cover their heads. It seems we assume they're doing it by choice. Just a thought.

And an interesting thought turasultana...I've never heard anyone say a word about hasidic jewish women and their wigs. Perhaps because they don't cover the face, but not all veiling covers the face either, and those women and girls (as you pointed out) still get the "poor thing" reaction.

I do appreciate the points you raised dreadgeek, and am flailing around a bit with words to describe my thoughts. I guess, for me, it boils down to if it is an individual choice or if the behavior or circumstance is forced upon the individual. If an individual is making a choice ...whether to veil or not, to go to a single-race or single-gender school, to subscribe to traditional values (no matter how they may appear to those outside of that culture), then I think we need to respect their choice.

If people are being oppressed and asking for help, then that's a completely different issue in my mind.

Not being a Muslim woman, I don't know what pressures they face to veil or not...from culture, from religious leaders, from family. I'm guessing (perhaps wrongly) that women in the U.S., Canada, France, etc. are making that choice at least somewhat freely...although I'm open to hearing from anyone in that position that I'm wrong on that.

What offends me is when we decide (as the government of France is attempting to do) that women may not wear the burqa...regardless of their individual choice. It would be the same as legislating that women could not wear men's clothing, or making bras illegal, or any number of other ridiculous scenarios.

[Rook]

Nat,
thanks for asking..
Not many do bother with asking and 99% of the time consider it Oppressive.
In a lot of cases, it could be.
But, they're well within the Minority.
I was raised a Muslim, I chose for myself when to Wear my Abaya/Niqab, using the Following verse

O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters, and the women of the faithful, to draw their wraps over them. They will thus be recognised and no harm will come to them. God is forgiving and kind.33:59

I say I chose , because I've yet to menstruate, so my Muslim Relatives were rather Lenient, despite being Salafi.
That and the fact I chose to wear an Abaya/Niqab, should say a lot about where I stand with both the Veils & Feminism.
Depending on the "School of Thought" the womyn was raised in or converted to etc., is the type of Veil you'll see in the Islamic world/community.
I no longer Veil though, I'll explain why in a moment..
But when I did, yes, there's a Huge Huge "Mystery".."What color's the hair", "Pink lips or deep red?".."Pimples?".."Fugly or knockout?"
The only ones who could answer all those were my Immediate Blood Relatives, whomever I dated {yeah, from time to time even my girl asked, if she wasn't a Muslim, being satisfied with my answer, they didnt care after}, and of course the women within the Segregated Mosques I attended.
After much..hmm..soulsearching, I stopped mostly because of the Imams stance on Lesbianism, I figured "If I'm going to hell, might as well have fun on the way"{Despite there being Zero mention of Lesbian in the Qu'ran}.
It never oppressed me, it actually felt Liberating, Protected out in Public, gave me a Unique sense of Privacy..
I did realize though, ever since Sept. 11, if you're wearing a Burqah/Chador/Abaya/Niqab, you're actually bringing much More attention to your presence.
The purpose of the Veiling is Modesty, not to attract attention and let yourself be known as Devout.
After 9/11, that went out the window in the U.S.{And Puerto Rico}.
Sad, but true.
However, every time I see a Full Niqaabi, I do feel a twang of Envy, and sincere Admiration.{Not to mention, some are cute when they unveil in the Mosque}

On the other subject..
I do agree, it's slightly Hypocritical to be Feminist and dictate another womyn's choice to Veil, Islamic or not, full face, or Partial covering.
I've yet to hear any Devoted catholic criticize Nuns {They don't cover their Face, but Many nuns, not only Veil, but very seldom are allowed out of their Cloister ...Feel free to look up Purdah}
As well as Haredi women and their own Coverings...
Or Protestants demand Amish/Mennonite womyn be given choice to wear pants and straw hats rather than their Bonnet and plain Dresses...
The issue in France chafes my ass, often...
Along with Switzerland, and their banning of Minarets {They should look into their Cathedrals also, Bells make Horrendous Noises sometimes.}

The more Liberal the Muslim's "School" is, the more is allowed..
Whereas, the more Conservative, the more Covered.
I've seen Niqaabi's help in the Mosque Kitchen side by side with a partially Veiled friend.
Some veiling are Cultural rather than Religious, but those, if you got a trained eye, U can distinguish quickly.

Besides, it can't be all that bad...From an Outsiders view, who knows..
You{in general} might be dissing a veiled Butch