What attracts you to Ftms ......

[BrutalDaddy]

Okay, got Ursula parked for the night, finally.


DMV, Julie pretty much hit the nail on the head with the use of the word shame, for me.

There were specific incidents, growing up as a female but feeling/knowing something just was not right with me, that caused the shame. It's not something I'll talk about out in the open but it's not something I will put away forever either because it is a part of the journey I've taken to get here. I gotta take the good with the bad. Lol.

I can honestly say that Julie has played a very very major role in me finally being totally okay with aligning my outside with my inside. I don't think she realizes that though. A lot of it comes from the religious upbringing and family that I come from. Yet they all adore Julie. Hell my own granny forced us to have a shot gun wedding at her house. My mom, in the past year or two, has started calling me, "her son". Most of the above has happened because they see that someone like me, a FTM, can be loved and accepted by another. That I'm not just some freak of nature or worse yet, someone who enjoys "dancing with the Devil" just to be the black sheep of the family.

Oh lordy, that was a derail if there ever was one but felt the need to share that. I guess what it boils down to is this....I am so damn grateful for threads like this because it's nice to be reminded every now and then why someone like myself could and would be appreciated, and not just by their lover/wife/spouse/partner or family.


Y'all Rock For Now,
Brute.


P.S. Snow, you scare me all the time. Just sayin'. *grinning*

[Bèsame*]

The honesty they share, the emotions they have about themselves, the energy they project.

Ranch house is a plus as well

[VintageFemme]

Their courage, strength of heart & spirit, the will to be true to who they are in the face of much bigotry, adversity and misunderstanding. And physically for me, just their sheer hottiness. Mhmmm.

[DMW]

Humm...i am pondering on this now...all of the derails...including some of my own...wondering if i should put my feelings in here...this space where people are supposed to be able to say what attracts them to people. feeling that i would just like to have a space to breathe and be my asshole, masculine, wonderful self and not feel picked at...a feeling as if i were cariron for vulchers...nor, do i like feeling or seeing ...especially submissive femmes...going through what must feel somewhat the same...( i am not quite sure) i believe buttons are being pushed when i voice out my honest genuine self (when and as if, i were talking with someone i adored or was being intimate with or a friend or brother that knows me well,but, i am here)...which leads me to suppose i should tamper myself...protect and guard myself with what i say or share...i have to ask myself..how are these people...to understand that...i am not a man that looks at a woman in a demeaning light...or see's her ...as if she belongs in a role that would make her feel badly about herself. If i were to say...damn...what you just said was so fing hot and i would like to bend *** **** *************...better censor myself here...because one...i don't share that well in a public space because...a.) it is sacred to me...how i talk to MY WOMAN...because, to me, she is sacred and so is that bond... and b.) now, i should tamper that down even more.....to darkness...because...i might offend someone for being me... not to mention,this is a space for those who are attracted to ftms to speak... not really me to reply to that... also, with what i say...may be perceived or thought of as "talking down to a woman or being sexist or...i don't know...wrong)...and it could make some women feel badly or trigger them...i suppose..i have to think more about this...i would like to start a new thread...but, i don't know how yet. I have grown tired of feeling like i have to apologize when i am just being myself. It is actually quite disturbing...the feeling like i have to defend myself or others just for being here.

I refuse to pick apart anyone else's previous posts because...i don't want them to feel picked on like carrion either...but, i won't lay down either and i hate to see...anyone lay down when they are just trying to express themselves...

[Hominid]

@dmw -
I commend you on your struggle to be clear, to be heard, to be yourself. It's very hard to be see for who you are in the written word. I learned in another thread (and was summarily smacked down for what other's say routinely) that one just can't take for granted that you will be "heard". The only way I've figured out to do it, if I care enough about the topic to go through the effort, is to use the "sandwich" technique. Put what you have to say between two pieces of metaphorical bread - qualifiers, compliments - something to make clear that what you have to say is just you. Do I resent that? A little. Then again, if it keeps someone from feeling judged or insulted, I suppose it's worth it.

On another note - alluding to the June Cleaver stuff, and somewhat what you have to say about speaking to your mate - I think some of what we who profess to admire or desire a '50's type dynamic are misunderstood, and also misrepresent. The key is: it's a kink, on some level. It's the idea of what it means to us now - not what it meant then. There was no choice then. There is now. It has become more appealing because there IS a choice. And again, it's taking on the parts that from a distance are appealing, and leaving behind the unpleasantness that made that a reality at one time. Kind of like those folks who are into Medieval Fairs - it's romanticized, far removed from what life was like for the actual participants, and based on an idea, a dynamic, not what it meant to be covered in smallpox scars and be covered in lice, no matter your social status.

[DMW]

continued from my first post...or be themselves and be accepted for who they are...
it must be difficult to be a moderator here...somewhat like a police state...
I have been around biomales and been offended by what they have said about
women. And i do not remain silent...or let their deragatory or offhand sexist remarks ...go by...unanswered or unquestioned...or without defending that woman..even if i don't know her....or especially if the remark was about women in general. I don't even like revealing this much about myself period. So, i can understand the questions from this site.

That was odd...my computer froze...my memory was full i believe...had to clear out the cache etc.

Hominid, thank you for your post. I agree with you on the necessity to provide a generalized note stating, for example, (my post is only regarding how I feel) in order to avoid offending others. I get that for sure.
And the 50's ....i wasn't sure i was even going to go into trying to explain...i am low on energy also...however, i do like your explanation..it is quite clear. I believe that will help some people.
I appreciate that. For now i sign off.
Cheers

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by DMW

Humm...i am pondering on this now...all of the derails...including some of my own...wondering if i should put my feelings in here...this space where people are supposed to be able to say what attracts them to people. feeling that i would just like to have a space to breathe and be my asshole, masculine, wonderful self and not feel picked at...a feeling as if i were cariron for vulchers...nor, do i like feeling or seeing ...especially submissive femmes...


DMW are you implying that you need space to be all of the things above in a thread for people to come in and talk about what attracts them to FTM's?

Are you also implying that the people who have come in here are vultures?? and are you also implying that these vultures are hurting the submissive femme and keeping guys/FTM's from having a pace to be assholes, masculine?

Are you really implying folks have come in here and picked on the guys/FTM's and submissive femmes?

If so. could you point that out?


Thanks..





going through what must feel somewhat the same...( i am not quite sure) i believe buttons are being pushed when i voice out my honest genuine self (when and as if, i were talking with someone i adored or was being intimate with or a friend or brother that knows me well,but, i am here)...which leads me to suppose i should tamper myself...protect and guard myself with what i say or share...i have to ask myself..how are these people...to understand that...i am not a man that looks at a woman in a demeaning light...or see's her ...as if she belongs in a role that would make her feel badly about herself. If i were to say...damn...what you just said was so fing hot and i would like to bend *** **** *************...better censor myself here...because one...i don't share that well in a public space because...a.) it is sacred to me...how i talk to MY WOMAN...because, to me, she is sacred and so is that bond... and b.) now, i should tamper that down even more.....to darkness...because...i might offend someone for being me... not to mention,this is a space for those who are attracted to ftms to speak... not really me to reply to that... also, with what i say...may be perceived or thought of as "talking down to a woman or being sexist or...i don't know...wrong)...and it could make some women feel badly or trigger them...i suppose..i have to think more about this...i would like to start a new thread...but, i don't know how yet. I have grown tired of feeling like i have to apologize when i am just being myself. It is actually quite disturbing...the feeling like i have to defend myself or others just for being here.

I refuse to pick apart anyone else's previous posts because...i don't want them to feel picked on like carrion either...but, i won't lay down either and i hate to see...anyone lay down when they are just trying to express themselves...

DMW would you be so kind and clarify what you meant? Thank you

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Hominid

@dmw -
I commend you on your struggle to be clear, to be heard, to be yourself. It's very hard to be see for who you are in the written word.

I learned in another thread (and was summarily smacked down for what other's say routinely) that one just can't take for granted that you will be "heard".

The only way I've figured out to do it, if I care enough about the topic to go through the effort, is to use the "sandwich" technique. Put what you have to say between two pieces of metaphorical bread - qualifiers, compliments - something to make clear that what you have to say is just you. Do I resent that? A little. Then again, if it keeps someone from feeling judged or insulted, I suppose it's worth it.

On another note - alluding to the June Cleaver stuff, and somewhat what you have to say about speaking to your mate - I think some of what we who profess to admire or desire a '50's type dynamic are misunderstood, and also misrepresent. The key is: it's a kink, on some level. It's the idea of what it means to us now - not what it meant then. There was no choice then. There is now. It has become more appealing because there IS a choice. And again, it's taking on the parts that from a distance are appealing, and leaving behind the unpleasantness that made that a reality at one time. Kind of like those folks who are into Medieval Fairs - it's romanticized, far removed from what life was like for the actual participants, and based on an idea, a dynamic, not what it meant to be covered in smallpox scars and be covered in lice, no matter your social status.

People coming in and stating their views and having a conversation is not a "SMACK DOWN"

I am unsure of what thread you are talking about since there are so many here on BFP, but I have yet to see anyone *smacking* anyone have folks been taken to task? Yes Do the isms get called out? Yeap. If you are being harrassed or threatened on BFP you should really really have the Moderators take care of that for you

[Soon]

Originally Posted by DMW

feeling that i would just like to have a space to breathe and be my asshole, masculine, wonderful self and not feel picked at...

Seriously?

I think most of us get enough of this common attitude (both the entitlement and the poor me bits) from men in the real world.

[Mike]

waits for the answer

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

DMW would you be so kind and clarify what you meant? Thank you

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

People coming in and stating their views and having a conversation is not a "SMACK DOWN"

I am unsure of what thread you are talking about since there are so many here on BFP, but I have yet to see anyone *smacking* anyone have folks been taken to task? Yes Do the isms get called out? Yeap. If you are being harrassed or threatened on BFP you should really really have the Moderators take care of that for you

Ugh!!!

I understand the feeling that some people may have that they are being jumped on. Which was what I was trying to talk to you, Snow, about when my head imploded.

I wasn't talking about the "being scared of" bits because THAT, I don't get. And I've told you a bunch of time that it makes no sense to me why people are scared of you???? That's got to suck to hear all the time when all you're here to do is interact with people who you like and and are like you in many ways.

The above responses to me are totally reasonable. I think if someone puts out there that they are feeling attacked, bullied or XYZ...then ask about it. Like you did. No judgement, no attack, just a hey.....can you help me out with this, I don't get it.

However, I do understand why people feel jumped on.....and since I can't multi-quote as well as I'd like, I'm gonna have to finish this in a second post....so stand by....

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Hominid

I think some of what we who profess to admire or desire a '50's type dynamic are misunderstood, and also misrepresent. The key is: it's a kink, on some level. It's the idea of what it means to us now - not what it meant then. There was no choice then. There is now. It has become more appealing because there IS a choice. And again, it's taking on the parts that from a distance are appealing, and leaving behind the unpleasantness that made that a reality at one time. Kind of like those folks who are into Medieval Fairs - it's romanticized, far removed from what life was like for the actual participants, and based on an idea, a dynamic, not what it meant to be covered in smallpox scars and be covered in lice, no matter your social status.

I think this is a fair comparison, as Medieval times also were not a shining example of women's rights, nor rights for the less fortunate. No one but the wealthy had rights and I do see the similarity between the two times.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by femmsational

Ugh!!!

I understand the feeling that some people may have that they are being jumped on. Which was what I was trying to talk to you, Snow, about when my head imploded.

I wasn't talking about the "being scared of" bits because THAT, I don't get. And I've told you a bunch of time that it makes no sense to me why people are scared of you???? That's got to suck to hear all the time when all you're here to do is interact with people who you like and and are like you in many ways.

The above responses to me are totally reasonable. I think if someone puts out there that they are feeling attacked, bullied or XYZ...then ask about it. Like you did. No judgement, no attack, just a hey.....can you help me out with this, I don't get it.

However, I do understand why people feel jumped on.....and since I can't multi-quote as well as I'd like, I'm gonna have to finish this in a second post....so stand by....

And when people ask where and when they were "attacked & bullied" there's nothing, no response. IF the bullying, and attacking does happen we have this great option called the report button, and if you are one of the people who do not like using the report button then I fear that the attacks and alleged bullying will go unnoticed by the Moderating team.

BFP isn't like any other online forum when it comes to them shenanigans, it really isn't read around...


This is a tiring argument that each time an ism or the bullshit is called out, people start saying:

I'm being silenced

I am being jumped on, attacked, chased out, afraid, bullied.



We are all equal here, there is no heirarchy and we are all free to post as long as we abide the TOS.

NOT ONCE in this tiring conversation has anyone bullied, attacked, picked on, anyone.


True story.



PS


I can't tell you how fucking tired I am of people claiming I am scary, or frightening. If you knew me, truly knew me you'd laugh and shake your head at the ridiculousness of the descriptors....

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Soon

Seriously?

I think most of us get enough of this common attitude (both the entitlement and the poor me bits) from men in the real world.

Originally Posted by Mike

waits for the answer

Please note that I am not trying to call you two out or say that I feel as though I'm being attacked. I am using these two posts as example of my thinking.


So cont......

After Snow, reasonably and justly asks for an explanation, we then get two more posts that could be read as snarky.


Why do I feel that they could be read as snarky??? Cause I remember back to when I was new to posting on these threads, YEARS ago. I was not as well versed on the language, the ideas, the issues surrounding certain parts of these debates as I am now. I didn't know how to express myself in ways that helped other people really hear what I was saying. (shit, still don't know how most of the time.) Because I didn't know HOW to say things in YOUR language, not the language I had known my all my life.

So, my point is, some people who come here really try to make a point and they just are inartful in the way they do it. Some are trying to learn and to those people it could be really scary. They want to interact with other people like them but there is a learning curve that we all have to go through and in that time, it's intimidating. I know I found the dash-site in 2002, didn't post one damn thing for two years cause I read and read and read and realized I had a lot of learning to do before I could express my feelings in an appropriate way. I just hadn't gained the correct language before I found that site. Some people aren't that way. They find us here and really jump in with both feet. But they are trying.


Some, are assholes. Jump at will in my opinion.


Why am I saying all this and quoting the above posts?? Because, *I* wish that when someone asks a person in a thread to please explain what they meant. And asks in a totally appropriate and reasonable way as Snow did.....Can we maybe wait and let the person respond before coming in with posts like the above?

The post that was made was called out by Snow, give the poster time to respond. PLEASE!!! Then if the poster proves that they are just not getting it, then ask some more.


Gahhh!! It's not up to me to tell anyone how to interact on these threads and I don't mean to come across that way. But this comes up all the time.

"I feel jumped on."

"I don't get that"

"But I'm getting attacked"

"Where"

"blah, blah, BLAH"

My feeling is, it's because people pile on. Not meaning to I'm sure. And not trying to be asshats about it. But, to people who are new/trying/not there yet/intimidated already, it can really feel like they are being bullied.

Can we just hear that message and maybe think about it???


Geez.....I hate pollyanaing out but I really understand both "sides" for lack of a better word, on this.

Sorry, derail, ignore as needed, jump on me as needed, just please think about it.


julie

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

And when people ask where and when they were "attacked & bullied" there's nothing, no response. IF the bullying, and attacking does happen we have this great option called the report button, and if you are one of the people who do not like using the report button then I fear that the attacks and alleged bullying will go unnoticed by the Moderating team.

BFP isn't like any other online forum when it comes to them shenanigans, it really isn't read around...


This is a tiring argument that each time an ism or the bullshit is called out, people start saying:

I'm being silenced

I am being jumped on, attacked, chased out, afraid, bullied.



We are all equal here, there is no heirarchy and we are all free to post as long as we abide the TOS.

NOT ONCE in this tiring conversation has anyone bullied, attacked, picked on, anyone.


True story.



PS


I can't tell you how fucking tired I am of people claiming I am scary, or frightening. If you knew me, truly knew me you'd laugh and shake your head at the ridiculousness of the descriptors....

I get it!!! Please see above or below. whichever it is on your computer.

And believe me, I laugh and shake my head a LOT when I see people refering to you like that. I don't know, maybe I just met you in a different way but I think you're a really sweet and caring person. SUPER funny. I like you a lot. Wierd how others read you so differently.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by femmsational

Please note that I am not trying to call you two out or say that I feel as though I'm being attacked. I am using these two posts as example of my thinking.


So cont......

After Snow, reasonably and justly asks for an explanation, we then get two more posts that could be read as snarky.


Why do I feel that they could be read as snarky??? Cause I remember back to when I was new to posting on these threads, YEARS ago. I was not as well versed on the language, the ideas, the issues surrounding certain parts of these debates as I am now. I didn't know how to express myself in ways that helped other people really hear what I was saying. (shit, still don't know how most of the time.) Because I didn't know HOW to say things in YOUR language, not the language I had known my all my life.

So, my point is, some people who come here really try to make a point and they just are inartful in the way they do it. Some are trying to learn and to those people it could be really scary. They want to interact with other people like them but there is a learning curve that we all have to go through and in that time, it's intimidating. I know I found the dash-site in 2002, didn't post one damn thing for two years cause I read and read and read and realized I had a lot of learning to do before I could express my feelings in an appropriate way. I just hadn't gained the correct language before I found that site. Some people aren't that way. They find us here and really jump in with both feet. But they are trying.


Some, are assholes. Jump at will in my opinion.


Why am I saying all this and quoting the above posts?? Because, *I* wish that when someone asks a person in a thread to please explain what they meant. And asks in a totally appropriate and reasonable way as Snow did.....Can we maybe wait and let the person respond before coming in with posts like the above?

The post that was made was called out by Snow, give the poster time to respond. PLEASE!!! Then if the poster proves that they are just not getting it, then ask some more.


Gahhh!! It's not up to me to tell anyone how to interact on these threads and I don't mean to come across that way. But this comes up all the time.

"I feel jumped on."

"I don't get that"

"But I'm getting attacked"

"Where"

"blah, blah, BLAH"

My feeling is, it's because people pile on. Not meaning to I'm sure. And not trying to be asshats about it. But, to people who are new/trying/not there yet/intimidated already, it can really feel like they are being bullied.

Can we just hear that message and maybe think about it???


Geez.....I hate pollyanaing out but I really understand both "sides" for lack of a better word, on this.

Sorry, derail, ignore as needed, jump on me as needed, just please think about it.


julie

its ok if you are calling me out, but my respose to wait for the answer is becasue I read the thread and i could respond to some things but i saw where a question was asked or two and i wondered what the answer would be so i wait.That way i get to respond if i want after the answer. Its called trying to understand why and where someone is coming from instead of passing judgement.

thanks

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Mike

its ok if you are calling me out, but my respose to wait for the answer is becasue I read the thread and i could respond to some things but i saw where a question was asked or two and i wondered what the answer would be so i wait.That way i get to respond if i want after the answer. Its called trying to understand why and where someone is coming from instead of passing judgement.

thanks

I get that. And truely I am NOT trying to call you out. I just used you as an example.

I'm sorry, I know for you it probably doesn't feel that way.

I understand how you feel and why you feel it. I just have been thinking about this circle argument that goes on all the time and felt the need to blab my feelings on it.

Please know I am NOT trying to police anything. I just want to put my thoughts out about this "issue" and see how others are thinking about it.


j

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't understand Julie, why Mike's and Soon's posts are read as detremental to the conversation, how they are read as attacking yet the two posts that I quoted aren't?

How does that happen?

[Mike]

personally i think the post are just us saying we are reading and wondering also.

[Gemme]

Actually, I have seen what could be taken as pushiness towards both parties.

HOWEVER

I really think it comes down to communication. I hope she doesn't mind me saying so, but Belle and I continued our conversation from here for a while and, by the end of it, I understood what she was saying much better. I honestly think that that particular viewpoint is definitely valid and is correct.

BUT

I really also think that the other side....the side that says this is what we do....is not being fully heard and understood. I *do* see the push on that side to agree with the other viewpoint and it does feel more 'pushy' than it needs to be.

Both sides are absolutely right. One side is looking at the dynamic from a historical point of view, especially with an election around the corner and the potential for women's rights to go in the tank if that person is elected. I get that. The other side is saying, please let me have my dynamic...my fetish...my kink....my way of loving without jumping on me for it. I get that too. The fallout happened in the communication because I believe that the historical side is not making a judgement on the execution of the dynamic at all; it's the glorifying of that time period, I think, that has so many upset.

It did, initially, feel like the historical importance of the era was being hammered into folks and that's mostly why I spoke my thoughts on the matter. I agree that it's VERY important to see where we've been. It helps to figure out where we're going and how to deal with the current social climate. When I got into this debate I was looking at it like, what I do in my home and bedroom, etc is none of anyone's beeswax, so buzz off. It felt like the dynamic itself was being attacked <--don't like this word but I can't think of another right now.

HOWEVER

I now see that the historical side was addressing the "the 50s were the best time evah" and "the good ole days" comments and so on and so forth. They aren't saying folks can't do what they want to do and live how they want to live. They would just like to not glamourize a time period that was really hurtful to women. I get that!

BUT

In the communication of that point, there were some things said that really put both sides on the defensive. That's when it really ran aground.

So, this is where I stand:

The 50s are romanticized on TV and in the movies as being ideal....as an 'innocent' time. Well, sometimes innocent means ignorant. The government was doing stuff....people were doing stuff....some really shitty stuff....all on the down low. Keeping females in their "place" was not only accepted but expected. Everything "unsightly" was thrust under the rug and keeping up with the Joneses was par for the course. Well, some things haven't changed. We are in a society of bigger is better....material things determine not only our place in the world but our worth as human beings. There is shitty stuff from EVERY era because people will always do shitty things to one another. Humans can be the worst monsters of all, especially to one another.

I think it still comes down to being able to speak your opinion without stepping all over anyone else's and making them choke on it. I do wish some things had been said differently, by both viewpoints.

This black text on a white screen is all we have and that takes a lot of give on all of our parts to get to the core of what is really being said. It's not that each side doesn't see what the other is saying...it's how it's being said, I believe, that is throwing walls up.

Which is what I think Julie is trying to work through...the language of it all.