What attracts you to Ftms ......

The_Lady_Snow · 10-28-2012, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by femmsational

Ugh!!!

I understand the feeling that some people may have that they are being jumped on. Which was what I was trying to talk to you, Snow, about when my head imploded.

I wasn't talking about the "being scared of" bits because THAT, I don't get. And I've told you a bunch of time that it makes no sense to me why people are scared of you????

That's got to suck to hear all the time when all you're here to do is interact with people who you like and and are like you in many ways.

The above responses to me are totally reasonable. I think if someone puts out there that they are feeling attacked, bullied or XYZ...then ask about it. Like you did. No judgement, no attack, just a hey.....can you help me out with this, I don't get it.

However, I do understand why people feel jumped on.....and since I can't multi-quote as well as I'd like, I'm gonna have to finish this in a second post....so stand by....

And when people ask where and when they were "attacked & bullied" there's nothing, no response. IF the bullying, and attacking does happen we have this great option called the report button, and if you are one of the people who do not like using the report button then I fear that the attacks and alleged bullying will go unnoticed by the Moderating team.

BFP isn't like any other online forum when it comes to them shenanigans, it really isn't read around...

This is a tiring argument that each time an ism or the bullshit is called out, people start saying:

I'm being silenced

I am being jumped on, attacked, chased out, afraid, bullied.

We are all equal here, there is no heirarchy and we are all free to post as long as we abide the TOS.

NOT ONCE in this tiring conversation has anyone bullied, attacked, picked on, anyone.

True story.

PS

I can't tell you how fucking tired I am of people claiming I am scary, or frightening. If you knew me, truly knew me you'd laugh and shake your head at the ridiculousness of the descriptors....

femmsational · 10-28-2012, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

And when people ask where and when they were "attacked & bullied" there's nothing, no response. IF the bullying, and attacking does happen we have this great option called the report button, and if you are one of the people who do not like using the report button then I fear that the attacks and alleged bullying will go unnoticed by the Moderating team.

BFP isn't like any other online forum when it comes to them shenanigans, it really isn't read around...

This is a tiring argument that each time an ism or the bullshit is called out, people start saying:

I'm being silenced

I am being jumped on, attacked, chased out, afraid, bullied.

We are all equal here, there is no heirarchy and we are all free to post as long as we abide the TOS.

NOT ONCE in this tiring conversation has anyone bullied, attacked, picked on, anyone.

True story.

PS

I can't tell you how fucking tired I am of people claiming I am scary, or frightening. If you knew me, truly knew me you'd laugh and shake your head at the ridiculousness of the descriptors....

I get it!!! Please see above or below. whichever it is on your computer.

And believe me, I laugh and shake my head a LOT when I see people refering to you like that. I don't know, maybe I just met you in a different way but I think you're a really sweet and caring person. SUPER funny. I like you a lot. Wierd how others read you so differently.

Gemme · 10-28-2012, 08:56 AM

Actually, I have seen what could be taken as pushiness towards both parties.

HOWEVER

I really think it comes down to communication. I hope she doesn't mind me saying so, but Belle and I continued our conversation from here for a while and, by the end of it, I understood what she was saying much better. I honestly think that that particular viewpoint is definitely valid and is correct.

BUT

I really also think that the other side....the side that says this is what we do....is not being fully heard and understood. I *do* see the push on that side to agree with the other viewpoint and it does feel more 'pushy' than it needs to be.

Both sides are absolutely right. One side is looking at the dynamic from a historical point of view, especially with an election around the corner and the potential for women's rights to go in the tank if that person is elected. I get that. The other side is saying, please let me have my dynamic...my fetish...my kink....my way of loving without jumping on me for it. I get that too. The fallout happened in the communication because I believe that the historical side is not making a judgement on the execution of the dynamic at all; it's the glorifying of that time period, I think, that has so many upset.

It did, initially, feel like the historical importance of the era was being hammered into folks and that's mostly why I spoke my thoughts on the matter. I agree that it's VERY important to see where we've been. It helps to figure out where we're going and how to deal with the current social climate. When I got into this debate I was looking at it like, what I do in my home and bedroom, etc is none of anyone's beeswax, so buzz off. It felt like the dynamic itself was being attacked <--don't like this word but I can't think of another right now.

HOWEVER

I now see that the historical side was addressing the "the 50s were the best time evah" and "the good ole days" comments and so on and so forth. They aren't saying folks can't do what they want to do and live how they want to live. They would just like to not glamourize a time period that was really hurtful to women. I get that!

BUT

In the communication of that point, there were some things said that really put both sides on the defensive. That's when it really ran aground.

So, this is where I stand:

The 50s are romanticized on TV and in the movies as being ideal....as an 'innocent' time. Well, sometimes innocent means ignorant. The government was doing stuff....people were doing stuff....some really shitty stuff....all on the down low. Keeping females in their "place" was not only accepted but expected. Everything "unsightly" was thrust under the rug and keeping up with the Joneses was par for the course. Well, some things haven't changed. We are in a society of bigger is better....material things determine not only our place in the world but our worth as human beings. There is shitty stuff from EVERY era because people will always do shitty things to one another. Humans can be the worst monsters of all, especially to one another.

I think it still comes down to being able to speak your opinion without stepping all over anyone else's and making them choke on it. I do wish some things had been said differently, by both viewpoints.

This black text on a white screen is all we have and that takes a lot of give on all of our parts to get to the core of what is really being said. It's not that each side doesn't see what the other is saying...it's how it's being said, I believe, that is throwing walls up.

Which is what I think Julie is trying to work through...the language of it all.

The_Lady_Snow · 10-28-2012, 09:00 AM

Actually Gemme, my point to my posts is/was that you can state your desires/wants/kinks/role playing/ dynamics without having to judge what others have done..

It seems to be a continuous tiring conversation in the forums that what you like may not be what I like and that there is no need to critique what others do.

BullDog · 10-28-2012, 09:04 AM

Gemme, it does not feel like people are talking about kink to me. I was quite surprised when that was brought up. I don't feel anyone is speaking out against anyone's kink.

The 1950s, June Cleaver, "OFOS" all the these things get brought up constantly- it does seem to be about social commentary and values and times that were "better" when women were ladies and men were gentleman. It hits quite a sore spot. I suppose we are supposed to stay in our own little camps and say nothing.

QueenofSmirks · 10-28-2012, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

Gemme, it does not feel like people are talking about kink to me. I was quite surprised when that was brought up. I don't feel anyone is speaking out against anyone's kink.

This actually threw me too. I don't consider the lifestyle being discussed as a "kink". The "you do the car repairs, take the trash out, open my door, and in return I'll cook and clean and pamper you when you get home at the end of the day" is not kink. It's a relationship or lifestyle dynamic. I don't even think it's role playing or mimicking "50's traditional values", and I can say that because I've lived that life, and it wasn't because I found it kinky, or glamorous - it was what fit me and my partner at the time. He took on all the "traditional" binary "male" roles in the relationship, and I took on the "female" ones, except that he cooked sometimes. And before anyone thinks about taking a torch to me, please reread where I referenced this as "TRADITIONAL binary gender roles". I'm not implying butches can't do X and femmes can't do X. I can do whatever the fuck I want to, and usually do, including riding motorcycles, getting tattoos, and playing poker. But I'm not going to pretend that in some relationships I've been in, those "traditional binary gender roles" didn't set in on their own, organically. That doesn't mean I was kept from doing anything - I am and was still my own person. I don't like taking out the trash, or fixing things around the house. I felt blessed that my partner liked doing all those things. But I never once saw any of this as "kink."

Gemme · 10-28-2012, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Actually Gemme, my point to my posts is/was that you can state your desires/wants/kinks/role playing/ dynamics without having to judge what others have done..

It seems to be a continuous tiring conversation in the forums that what you like may not be what I like and that there is no need to critique what others do.

Okay. I see that and do hear that from you. And you are right. Everyone should be able to do their own thing without judgement as long as it's consensual.

What you are saying here is what I was saying earlier. To me, it felt like the dynamic...the exchange between folks using some of the standards of that time....were was was being challenged. I see that it's more than that now.

Basically, as I understand it, this stemmed from a set of comments made about how this era was the best and that some folks wished the world was like this now, etc. Somehow that opinion morphed into a judgement call on others who do not participate in that dynamic.

I have to withdraw from the conversation, as it's time for work, but I think we're saying a lot of the same thing. There's just that one part that seems to be tripping folks up.

Gemme · 10-28-2012, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Actually Gemme, my point to my posts is/was that you can state your desires/wants/kinks/role playing/ dynamics without having to judge what others have done..

It seems to be a continuous tiring conversation in the forums that what you like may not be what I like and that there is no need to critique what others do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

Gemme, it does not feel like people are talking about kink to me. I was quite surprised when that was brought up. I don't feel anyone is speaking out against anyone's kink.

The 1950s, June Cleaver, "OFOS" all the these things get brought up constantly- it does seem to be about social commentary and values and times that were "better" when women were ladies and men were gentleman. It hits quite a sore spot. I suppose we are supposed to stay in our own little camps and say nothing.

One last thing....see how it can be confusing? We have two different themes running through the same conversation.

So, part of it is based on preferences and part of it is based on historical ramifications.

Really have to go now, but I promise I'll be back later tonight! Thanks for the discussion!

QueenofSmirks · 10-28-2012, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemme

One last thing....see how it can be confusing? We have two different themes running through the same conversation.

So, part of it is based on preferences and part of it is based on historical ramifications.

Really have to go now, but I promise I'll be back later tonight! Thanks for the discussion!

It isn't just that we have different themes running through this conversation, but I think the latest conversation is that some people want to have a safe place to post without being challenged. I get it, but that's not what public forums are about. I think there are two solutions: discuss in person, in private, or in a private online chat room made up of people that are like minded or who won't challenge you; or post in the Listening thread, where nobody is allowed to respond. It's not perfect, but nothing can be all things to everyone, and since this is mostly a public site, this obviously is not a place where people can post their opinions and thoughts without responses.

GraffitiBoi · 10-28-2012, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemme

Basically, as I understand it, this stemmed from a set of comments made about how this era was the best and that some folks wished the world was like this now, etc. Somehow that opinion morphed into a judgement call on others who do not participate in that dynamic.

I'm only using Gemme's post as a starting point to clarify what happened and try to maybe get people to understand where all this came from.

I was here when the comment was made that actually caused this whole derailling thread. The comment was relating to how the person likes to treat her 'man'/boi/butch/partner/etc. She was referring to how she likes to cook, clean, etc. It was not about the era itself at all or claiming that the 50s was the ideal time. It was just simply about how she likes to treat the person she loves. Other people assumed that by her using June Cleaver as how she defines herself to mean that she meant the 50s were the best times and that somehow she was in favor of suppressing women's rights, the rights of other minorities, giving men all the power and control... blah blah blah. This was not the intent or meaning and it all got blown out of proportion because some people jumped to conclusions and made some very big assumptions. It had nothing to do with kink or revoking equality or rights.

I don't think any single person here was in the wrong for anything they said. I do think it was wrong for people to jump to conclusions and make assumptions first. But it happens and forums are where we can talk it out and understand each other. Everyone has different ways they live their lives. No one is denying that right. Some women like to take care of their partner, some want to be taken care of, and others want an equal 50/50 split. No one is wrong. Assuming a 'June Cleaver' Femme wants to give up her rights and live like it's the 1950s based on one small comment is not much different than how some straight people assume that being gay means you like to sleep around with everyone and have no morals based solely on the small fact that you are attracted to someone who is the same gender as you are.

Thank you for listening and I hope this may have helped sort this all out, at least a little bit.

BullDog · 10-28-2012, 10:40 AM

I think I do partially get it. Like if I said, wow I love the 1920's they had such great music and clothes. Then people come back and say OMG BullDog how could you say that? What about WWI, The Great Depression was about to hit, all the oppression- racism, sexism, etc. Then I'm like- geeze I like the music and clothes I didn't say I love everything about it or want to live exactly that way.

With the whole 1950's thing, June Cleaver, OFOS- it feels like we are hit with it time and time again and it feels stifling and oppressive to me. Maybe because I lived a quasi-version of it. I think the June Cleaver thread is quite enlightening and expresses many of the thoughts I feel. I get that we can all have our own favorite eras and role models, but these just seem to be predominant ones that get held out as the standard over and over again. It feels like a very white upper middle class heterosexual model that gets held up as the standard that most of us could never live up to or want to live up to. Perhaps the answer is to just go to our separate corners. I really don't know.

Chancie · 10-28-2012, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GraffitiBoi

<snip>

I was here when the comment was made that actually caused this whole derailling thread. The comment was relating to how the person likes to treat her 'man'/boi/butch/partner/etc. She was referring to how she likes to cook, clean, etc. It was not about the era itself at all or claiming that the 50s was the ideal time. It was just simply about how she likes to treat the person she loves. Other people assumed that by her using June Cleaver as how she defines herself to mean that she meant the 50s were the best times and that somehow she was in favor of suppressing women's rights, the rights of other minorities, giving men all the power and control... blah blah blah. This was not the intent or meaning and it all got blown out of proportion because some people jumped to conclusions and made some very big assumptions. It had nothing to do with kink or revoking equality or rights.

<snip>

The thing is, and it is not my intention to rank on that member, so do I. I love taking care of Pete. I understand the desire for a shorthand to describe that, I do. But the references to periods of time that were especially bad for women, or Blacks, or any other group that has been systematically discriminated against? It's shit stirring, whether intentional or not.

GraffitiBoi · 10-28-2012, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancie

But the references to periods of time that were especially bad for women, or Blacks, or any other group that has been systematically discriminated against? It's shit stirring, whether intentional or not.

And yet people love the renaissance fair and flock to it and dress up in period costume, but it doesn't stir up as much... stuff... as this person's post did. Talk about an oppressive time period!

That being said I think I need to remove myself from this whole thread until (if) it un-derails itself! LOL

Hominid · 10-28-2012, 10:58 AM

I think I brought "kink" into the conversation - I think I also qualified it as "some level of kink" - I apologize for any offense. There is a whole community of people who come at this from a 50's household kinky point of view, I must have had that on my brain. Medieval Fairs aren't kink either. I'm not sure bringing kink into the discussion invalidates what I was saying. Actually whether it's kink or not, although times have changed - there were women who felt empowered even back then, and weren't happy about the changes.

As far as being an asshole - yes, born-men have the whole world in which to be an asshole. This may be less so for trans-men to different degrees depending on their circumstances. I believe we are ALL assholes. I *think* I understand what DMW was trying to say - I wasn't thrilled with the "especially submissive femme" reference. Really, he has a right to want to vent, to be his "asshole" self. But in a thread such as this with a large number of femmes - not wise. DMW would be better off choosing another thread, or maybe creating his own, where other guys in similar shoes who have gone through or are going through the process can call him out or support him from our perspective. I can say it is very hard at times to be surrounded by male privilege, not be perceived as male, and confuse the lack of receipt of male privilege with lack of recognition as male. VERY hard, and often not resolvable until one is perceived as male socially.

For me, I became an even bigger feminist the more I was perceived as male. Males sometimes see me as betraying them, women are generally confused when I advocate - and sadly, if they knew I was trans I would not be taken as seriously.

10-28-2012, 08:56 AM	#3
Gemme Practically Lives Here How Do You Identify?: Queer Stone Femme Girl of the Unicorn Variety Preferred Pronoun?: She, as in 'She's a GEM' Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The roads are narrow here Posts: 36,631 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 182,498 Thanked 107,973 Times in 25,664 Posts Rep Power: 21474888	Actually, I have seen what could be taken as pushiness towards both parties. HOWEVER I really think it comes down to communication. I hope she doesn't mind me saying so, but Belle and I continued our conversation from here for a while and, by the end of it, I understood what she was saying much better. I honestly think that that particular viewpoint is definitely valid and is correct. BUT I really also think that the other side....the side that says this is what we do....is not being fully heard and understood. I do see the push on that side to agree with the other viewpoint and it does feel more 'pushy' than it needs to be. Both sides are absolutely right. One side is looking at the dynamic from a historical point of view, especially with an election around the corner and the potential for women's rights to go in the tank if that person is elected. I get that. The other side is saying, please let me have my dynamic...my fetish...my kink....my way of loving without jumping on me for it. I get that too. The fallout happened in the communication because I believe that the historical side is not making a judgement on the execution of the dynamic at all; it's the glorifying of that time period, I think, that has so many upset. It did, initially, feel like the historical importance of the era was being hammered into folks and that's mostly why I spoke my thoughts on the matter. I agree that it's VERY important to see where we've been. It helps to figure out where we're going and how to deal with the current social climate. When I got into this debate I was looking at it like, what I do in my home and bedroom, etc is none of anyone's beeswax, so buzz off. It felt like the dynamic itself was being attacked <--don't like this word but I can't think of another right now. HOWEVER I now see that the historical side was addressing the "the 50s were the best time evah" and "the good ole days" comments and so on and so forth. They aren't saying folks can't do what they want to do and live how they want to live. They would just like to not glamourize a time period that was really hurtful to women. I get that! BUT In the communication of that point, there were some things said that really put both sides on the defensive. That's when it really ran aground. So, this is where I stand: The 50s are romanticized on TV and in the movies as being ideal....as an 'innocent' time. Well, sometimes innocent means ignorant. The government was doing stuff....people were doing stuff....some really shitty stuff....all on the down low. Keeping females in their "place" was not only accepted but expected. Everything "unsightly" was thrust under the rug and keeping up with the Joneses was par for the course. Well, some things haven't changed. We are in a society of bigger is better....material things determine not only our place in the world but our worth as human beings. There is shitty stuff from EVERY era because people will always do shitty things to one another. Humans can be the worst monsters of all, especially to one another. I think it still comes down to being able to speak your opinion without stepping all over anyone else's and making them choke on it. I do wish some things had been said differently, by both viewpoints. This black text on a white screen is all we have and that takes a lot of give on all of our parts to get to the core of what is really being said. It's not that each side doesn't see what the other is saying...it's how it's being said, I believe, that is throwing walls up. Which is what I think Julie is trying to work through...the language of it all. __________________ Gemme's Journal I'm misunderestimated. Last edited by Gemme; 10-28-2012 at 09:01 AM.

10-28-2012, 09:00 AM	#4
The_Lady_Snow MILLION $$$ PUSSY How Do You Identify?: Kinky, Raw, Perverted, Uber Queer Alpha Femme Preferred Pronoun?: Iconic Ms. Relationship Status: Keeper of 3, only one has the map to my freckles Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: La Reina del Sur Posts: 22,488 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 32,231 Thanked 80,081 Times in 15,669 Posts Rep Power: 21474874	Ummm Actually Gemme, my point to my posts is/was that you can state your desires/wants/kinks/role playing/ dynamics without having to judge what others have done.. It seems to be a continuous tiring conversation in the forums that what you like may not be what I like and that there is no need to critique what others do. __________________ "If you’re going to play these dirty games of ours, then you might as well indulge completely. It’s all about turning back into an animal and that’s the beauty of it. Place your guilt on the sidewalk and take a blow torch to it (guilt is usually worthless anyway). Be perverted, be filthy, do things that mannered people shouldn’t do. If you’re going to be gross then go for it and don’t wimp out."---Master Aiden

10-28-2012, 09:04 AM	#5
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,666 Times in 4,464 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Gemme, it does not feel like people are talking about kink to me. I was quite surprised when that was brought up. I don't feel anyone is speaking out against anyone's kink. The 1950s, June Cleaver, "OFOS" all the these things get brought up constantly- it does seem to be about social commentary and values and times that were "better" when women were ladies and men were gentleman. It hits quite a sore spot. I suppose we are supposed to stay in our own little camps and say nothing. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

10-28-2012, 10:40 AM	#11
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,666 Times in 4,464 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I think I do partially get it. Like if I said, wow I love the 1920's they had such great music and clothes. Then people come back and say OMG BullDog how could you say that? What about WWI, The Great Depression was about to hit, all the oppression- racism, sexism, etc. Then I'm like- geeze I like the music and clothes I didn't say I love everything about it or want to live exactly that way. With the whole 1950's thing, June Cleaver, OFOS- it feels like we are hit with it time and time again and it feels stifling and oppressive to me. Maybe because I lived a quasi-version of it. I think the June Cleaver thread is quite enlightening and expresses many of the thoughts I feel. I get that we can all have our own favorite eras and role models, but these just seem to be predominant ones that get held out as the standard over and over again. It feels like a very white upper middle class heterosexual model that gets held up as the standard that most of us could never live up to or want to live up to. Perhaps the answer is to just go to our separate corners. I really don't know. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

10-28-2012, 10:58 AM	#14
Hominid Member How Do You Identify?: Male with interesting historical perspective Relationship Status: Taking Applications Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: In perpetual Wonder. And Western Mass. Posts: 254 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 417 Thanked 753 Times in 187 Posts Rep Power: 11507408	I think I brought "kink" into the conversation - I think I also qualified it as "some level of kink" - I apologize for any offense. There is a whole community of people who come at this from a 50's household kinky point of view, I must have had that on my brain. Medieval Fairs aren't kink either. I'm not sure bringing kink into the discussion invalidates what I was saying. Actually whether it's kink or not, although times have changed - there were women who felt empowered even back then, and weren't happy about the changes. As far as being an asshole - yes, born-men have the whole world in which to be an asshole. This may be less so for trans-men to different degrees depending on their circumstances. I believe we are ALL assholes. I think I understand what DMW was trying to say - I wasn't thrilled with the "especially submissive femme" reference. Really, he has a right to want to vent, to be his "asshole" self. But in a thread such as this with a large number of femmes - not wise. DMW would be better off choosing another thread, or maybe creating his own, where other guys in similar shoes who have gone through or are going through the process can call him out or support him from our perspective. I can say it is very hard at times to be surrounded by male privilege, not be perceived as male, and confuse the lack of receipt of male privilege with lack of recognition as male. VERY hard, and often not resolvable until one is perceived as male socially. For me, I became an even bigger feminist the more I was perceived as male. Males sometimes see me as betraying them, women are generally confused when I advocate - and sadly, if they knew I was trans I would not be taken as seriously.