Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[SuperFemme]

A conversation such as this is important to have, and it is dismissive to come up in a conversation and school the author on where it should have been. In fact, the very act of doing so gives credence to the OP by putting hym in the *student* role and yourself in the *teacher* role when you two don't have that kind of familiarity.

I am not leather, and i totally get why this thread is in Gender, Labels, and Identities. It's about WeatherBoi and other subs/bois & D/s being treated as *less than* because of their identities.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

....putting hym in the *student* role and yourself in the *teacher* role....

Interesting how differently we sometimes interpret things... I didn't read it that way at all, Adele. I read it as one equal talking to another equal, asking a question about something that was puzzling--and then going on to give opinions about the issues weatherboi raised in his OP. It was the kind of post I would expect Jess to make to me or to anyone, yanno?

Maybe I read it that way because I'm geared that way; I absolutely refuse to see or treat others as anything but my equal unless they have specifically asked me to be Mama for them. To me, it doesn't matter what someone might be, or how deeply they might live in whatever space they choose; if they haven't chosen me personally to Mama them, they are my equal--by the same token, if I haven't chosen them to Daddy me, they are my equal.

I know there's a tradition online of putting a sub/girl/boy/slave's name all lowercase, and if I notice someone uses that convention for themselves, I will try to respect it the same way I respect pronoun choices for Butches--but that's all it is, paying respect to someone's preferred name/pronoun. They're still my equal.

[Apocalipstic]

I think it is a great thread since the subject is about Femme Led relationships, I am confused as to why it would be a problem for it to be in the gender labels section of the forums.

It does seem kind of Toppy to tell people how to word and where to place their threads.

Yes, I know it happens all the time, it happened just last week in the RedZone to Christie, so I get that Jess might think it is ok to do that. But it seems Toppy.

I just wish we could take things as face value and respect that the OP really meant what he asked in a variety of contexts, so the placement is perfect.

There are Femme led relationships not in the Leather Community.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by June

(Hi, LittleDuck - Now, take that back about me being bossy!)

I'm also glad this is out in the general forum, because for me, it's all about mutual respect and gaining a better understanding. We are having a lot of conversations here about power/empowerment right now, which I find fascinating!

In the past, I have dated Butch Tops and Transmen, what I found to be the case for me is that without exception, they Topped me in bed, but in all other aspects of our relationship, we were equal or I took the lead. Some people think "Top on the streets, bottom in the sheets" is a derogatory term. I don't think that at all, in fact, I think it very clearly defines who I am. I have also known Butch and Transmen who were like that as well, and they were kind of fun . It's not about "Flipping a Butch". It's about Desire. Even the meanest Butch Top I ever dated wanted to be held and comforted sometimes. I admire people who don't let their ego override their desires. Taking it up the whatever doesn't make you "less than" any more than serving as a table during a gathering does.

People forget that it's the bottom who is taking the lash. Any fool with some practice can manage a single tail, but the real strength comes from being able to take it. Frankly, I don't trust a Top who has never bottomed (Which is different to me than submitting). If you've never taken it, how can you give it? Perhaps that's another thread. But I am referring to people I have known in RL who claim to be Tops and when asked about their experience look at me in abject horror "NO, I could NEVER do that!" as though I had just suggested they suck on some day old underwear. *Spit*.

Great thread, weatherboi - Hang in there.

You rock June.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by June

In the past, I have dated Butch Tops and Transmen, what I found to be the case for me is that without exception, they Topped me in bed, but in all other aspects of our relationship, we were equal or I took the lead. Some people think "Top on the streets, bottom in the sheets" is a derogatory term. I don't think that at all, in fact, I think it very clearly defines who I am. I have also known Butch and Transmen who were like that as well, and they were kind of fun . It's not about "Flipping a Butch". It's about Desire. Even the meanest Butch Top I ever dated wanted to be held and comforted sometimes. I admire people who don't let their ego override their desires. Taking it up the whatever doesn't make you "less than" any more than serving as a table during a gathering does.

.

Well said June! This is sorta me. I found myself attracted to butch/masculine and the BF bedroom dynamic. Enjoy being a lady and made love to, pampered, adored, etc. At the same time in day to day the chances are I will lead the relationship because I'm good at it.

Part of me thinks that the perfect relationship for me is one who is strong and naturally dominant as I am. Maybe a Daddy type because I'm a spoiled little girl. But lately reading these threads, some of the phrases from some of you I get these pangs and my heart pounds when I think about topping. Sometimes Lady Snow will have the most simple sentence and I can "feel" something in me spark up.

90% of the time I am dominant and the subtle undertones of D/s excites me and then 10% of me wants to know I have the option to just let go.

[weatherboi]

[QUOTE=Jess;108730]Hi there weatherboi,

When I made the statement regarding "where" to place this thread, it was because at that point in this thread it was very obviously being geared toward a "power exchange" relationship and every response made reflected the M/s D/s variance in those relationships. It also seemed very "vanilla" unfriendly in that a couple statements were made referring to "vanilla" folks and felt kinda "othering". The use of the terms "led", "bottom" are specific terms stemming from the Leather/ BDSM world, hence why it feels geared toward that.

this is where our individual perspectives lead us to difference, so here we our in genders, labels and identities. i also know my intent was for people from all places on the spectrum to be involved,because that is the only way to gain awareness, knowledge, and progression.

Any relationship ( in my opinion) that reads as "led" as opposed to equal is one of some degree of dominance and submission. It can be called M/s, Daddy/girl, Mommy/boy, monkey/ banana. The difference is in the varying degrees of submission and accepted dominance. My hope was to perhaps open this discussion up to an audience who may share the interest in the gender dismissive specific aspect of relationships and not make it only comfortable to Leather and BDSM folks. I hope that makes sense. It was never intended to disregard it, as I DO believe it a very timely and important discussion for some of us to be having.

this is the thing jess...when i thought about opening this thread i realized the balance may tip the scale but it was important for me to include all. just because you hadn't read it yet doesn't make it so. if only one couple showed up in here that sees themselves not into any kind of leather/bdsm/kink dynamic then i am happy happy they are here and can't wait for them to share.

I am sorry to have used those old "mysogynistic" phrases to have illustrated the point I think we were both trying to make. THOSE are the types of responses it sounds like you have been receiving that really suck. I simply used them to help you understand that I do get what you are saying.

having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. < this is what i said.

let me be more clear. i have heard these statements before in the past when describing my first femme led relationship, by my father and his friends. i just didnt feel the need to get that detailed in my post because i did not want to seem like i was disrespecting my father or his friends to my Ms or her Peers. She and They read this also. my point is your example sounded very ooogy to me in a mysandric kind of way. you do id as butch correct? i took the time to visit your side bar and saw "other" as preferred pronoun how would you feel if i started to assume your gender for you?

The reason I thought it about self acceptance is in the viewing of our lives by others, we may never ever find a time or place where folks ( in general) do just "get it", moreover, honor and respect us. I find it highly unlikely that anyone can " change this style of thinking", when others are so dead set in how they view themselves in the order of things. They only see "you" as some skewed reflection of how they see their own "role" in life.

again this is where our individual perspectives differ. i accept myself. when a person doesn't respect my dynamic, or my gender i think...sheesh that person has alot of work to do. its on them not me. i feel everybody should respect my choices and my space. they may not like it but they can respect it. honor for me is an entirely different ballgame. honor is earned. i don't need people to "get it" to respect my choices and my space. limit.

Here is what I see, if I may. I see you as a strong, intelligent, masculine female/trans energy who "lives" to serve, respect and honor a strong intelligent feminine woman . I see nothing at all "less than" in how you choose to express those desires, in either the Leather world or the "rest of the world". I just see a person who has felt slighted by someone who doesn't get what you have with your partner or your Ms.

jess ...not that it would be a bad thing because i know it will help me be a better man, but female energy i dont have.. i pose a challenge to you... go find a post where you read this female energy i have and let me know cause i would like to be in on it. when i want to "see" one of my online community members i go to there profile page. if i want to further "see" them then i go to their posting history. i have taken the time out to go "see" your page and your history before addressing this post. i also stepped into some threads that i remember we had interaction and you were active. all i will say about how i see you is this...clearly you waffle on issues hiding behind devils advocacy and are confused. i am not slighted jess...i am determined to learn the most i can in the short amount of time i got.

I think ALL relationships have some degree of an exchange of "power" within them. I think there is a clear equality in chosen M/s and D/s relationships ( if they are healthy and negotiated and lived wholly). I do not think a bottom runs the fuck, nor do I think a Top runs the fuck. If there aren't expressly negotiated boundaries ( do's and don'ts) then it is no longer consensual. It is simply one person being domineering over another. One can be a top or bottom without having the other present, however, without the other fulfilling their chosen role, it makes for a pretty boring scene. Either party can stop a scene just as quickly as the other. In that, they are equal and equally necessary to creating that space. This thought can be extrapolated to the power exchange dynamic in the larger relationship, not just scene specific. uh huh

For me personally, it becomes tricky to have discussions relating to Leather/ BDSM dynamics in non Leather/ BDSM spaces as it is neither safe nor respectful of non BDSM folks. For some folks, for example, even the use of the phrase "without permission" regarding what one person in a relationship can do, can be seen as very offensive or abusive. This can very quickly shut them down to the deeper issue being discussed ( which is about gender and roles within a relationship). It's akin to going to a public restaurant and using your slave as an ashtray. It becomes neither safe for you or your slave and definitely non-consensual for anyone else trying to just have dinner. Does that make sense? Most old school ( Old Guard) Leather folk I know actually never make public display of their proclivities unless in Leather space. It is part of a long history of abuse that they have evolved into compartmentalizing different aspects of their lives safely and respectfully.

jess i do not feel anyone has been inappropriate here when discussing this topic.. my Ms and her Peers have and i trust will always treat the public eye with respect. your scenario above will never be my life. if it is somebody else's life then i am sorry for them and hope these words help. what proclivities do you speak of?? i am not sure why you are bringing Old Guard into this, do you?(i have permission from my Ms to ask you to contact me through PM in regards to Old Guard out of respect for protocol and respect for this thread, i will only discuss Old Guard with you nothing else)



I truly hope that this makes sense and I hope you will know I am not attempting to do anything here other than honestly say, I do get where you are coming from regarding how the role you "choose" to live in with your partner. My role in my relationship shifts hats a hell of a lot. We DO compartmentalize the different aspects of who and what we are to one another and quite fluidly most of the time. Our "kink" is private. Our "power exchange" is private and honored. Our public display in the world at large is very respectful of one another in whatever manner is deemed appropriate for the setting. Read: "when in Rome.... etc" I as a Dominant do not place a submissive in a position to have to defend herself( himself) to unlearned people. Meaning, I don't introduce her to non-BDSM/Leather folk as my "girl" or allow for any discomfort or disrespect to be subjected by people who do not get it. There truly is a time and place for everything and there is a reason that folks who have been around a very long time will less and less frequently subject themselves to the admonishment of others who lack deeper understanding of the dynamic.

i am not sure where you are coming from. you say your kink is private yet you have revealed some of it throughout this website. so i am wondering why you contradict yourself? ? i have not once felt i am defending myself to "unlearned" people in here, and feel you are putting people down who don"t live in kink. again my public outings with my Ms and her Peers have never caused me discomfort or to feel disrespected. if someone we know or a stranger acts like an asshat it is on them not my Ms. will she defend me??...yes. again this is where our perspectives differ...i see the retreat of folks who have been around a long time as just being natural...there may be a small percentage of people that "retire" feels this what you say to be true for them. when i read this section of your post i see you bragging about your privacy and putting "unlearned" people (your words not mine) and retired kink folk in a place where they see themselves as victim. not really sure how it relates to the thread.



I guess what it comes down to for me is that if you want to live as an openly submissive boi or slave then you may have to accept that not everyone is going to get it and consider more carefully where you choose to reveal this information. Sometimes, I think that aspect has more to do with being understood than the gender/ role aspect or non-traditional roles within a relationship. It can be very off-putting to people who see S/m or any aspect of it as still stemming from abusive maligned relationships.

well then i would say to you...lucky for you, you are not an openly submissive boi or slave because you would have to settle with that attitude about it. i choose to take a different route in life, because i don't settle. again i will ask...what is going on in here that makes you believe to be offputting to people??

If you are able to hear the genuine respect I have for you and this subject, I would love to talk more about what non-traditional roles in relationships look like and how the evolution of relationships sometimes seems left behind in the b-f world even outside the M/s aspect.

jess have you read this thread???? the title??? cause we have been talking about that.you just don't seem to ever add anything...for me it feels like you just keep coming in here and picking certain details apart that hold no merit.

Thanks, Jess

Thanks for taking the time to read this,
Grant

[Jess]

[QUOTE=weatherboi;109229][QUOTE=Jess;108730]Hi there weatherboi,

When I made the statement regarding "where" to place this thread, it was because at that point in this thread it was very obviously being geared toward a "power exchange" relationship and every response made reflected the M/s D/s variance in those relationships. It also seemed very "vanilla" unfriendly in that a couple statements were made referring to "vanilla" folks and felt kinda "othering". The use of the terms "led", "bottom" are specific terms stemming from the Leather/ BDSM world, hence why it feels geared toward that.

this is where our individual perspectives lead us to difference, so here we our in genders, labels and identities. i also know my intent was for people from all places on the spectrum to be involved,because that is the only way to gain awareness, knowledge, and progression.

Any relationship ( in my opinion) that reads as "led" as opposed to equal is one of some degree of dominance and submission. It can be called M/s, Daddy/girl, Mommy/boy, monkey/ banana. The difference is in the varying degrees of submission and accepted dominance. My hope was to perhaps open this discussion up to an audience who may share the interest in the gender dismissive specific aspect of relationships and not make it only comfortable to Leather and BDSM folks. I hope that makes sense. It was never intended to disregard it, as I DO believe it a very timely and important discussion for some of us to be having.

this is the thing jess...when i thought about opening this thread i realized the balance may tip the scale but it was important for me to include all. just because you hadn't read it yet doesn't make it so. if only one couple showed up in here that sees themselves not into any kind of leather/bdsm/kink dynamic then i am happy happy they are here and can't wait for them to share.

I am sorry to have used those old "mysogynistic" phrases to have illustrated the point I think we were both trying to make. THOSE are the types of responses it sounds like you have been receiving that really suck. I simply used them to help you understand that I do get what you are saying.

having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. < this is what i said.

let me be more clear. i have heard these statements before in the past when describing my first femme led relationship, by my father and his friends. i just didnt feel the need to get that detailed in my post because i did not want to seem like i was disrespecting my father or his friends to my Ms or her Peers. She and They read this also. my point is your example sounded very ooogy to me in a mysandric kind of way. you do id as butch correct? i took the time to visit your side bar and saw "other" as preferred pronoun how would you feel if i started to assume your gender for you?

The reason I thought it about self acceptance is in the viewing of our lives by others, we may never ever find a time or place where folks ( in general) do just "get it", moreover, honor and respect us. I find it highly unlikely that anyone can " change this style of thinking", when others are so dead set in how they view themselves in the order of things. They only see "you" as some skewed reflection of how they see their own "role" in life.

again this is where our individual perspectives differ. i accept myself. when a person doesn't respect my dynamic, or my gender i think...sheesh that person has alot of work to do. its on them not me. i feel everybody should respect my choices and my space. they may not like it but they can respect it. honor for me is an entirely different ballgame. honor is earned. i don't need people to "get it" to respect my choices and my space. limit.

Here is what I see, if I may. I see you as a strong, intelligent, masculine female/trans energy who "lives" to serve, respect and honor a strong intelligent feminine woman . I see nothing at all "less than" in how you choose to express those desires, in either the Leather world or the "rest of the world". I just see a person who has felt slighted by someone who doesn't get what you have with your partner or your Ms.

jess ...not that it would be a bad thing because i know it will help me be a better man, but female energy i dont have.. i pose a challenge to you... go find a post where you read this female energy i have and let me know cause i would like to be in on it. when i want to "see" one of my online community members i go to there profile page. if i want to further "see" them then i go to their posting history. i have taken the time out to go "see" your page and your history before addressing this post. i also stepped into some threads that i remember we had interaction and you were active. all i will say about how i see you is this...clearly you waffle on issues hiding behind devils advocacy and are confused. i am not slighted jess...i am determined to learn the most i can in the short amount of time i got.

I think ALL relationships have some degree of an exchange of "power" within them. I think there is a clear equality in chosen M/s and D/s relationships ( if they are healthy and negotiated and lived wholly). I do not think a bottom runs the fuck, nor do I think a Top runs the fuck. If there aren't expressly negotiated boundaries ( do's and don'ts) then it is no longer consensual. It is simply one person being domineering over another. One can be a top or bottom without having the other present, however, without the other fulfilling their chosen role, it makes for a pretty boring scene. Either party can stop a scene just as quickly as the other. In that, they are equal and equally necessary to creating that space. This thought can be extrapolated to the power exchange dynamic in the larger relationship, not just scene specific. uh huh

For me personally, it becomes tricky to have discussions relating to Leather/ BDSM dynamics in non Leather/ BDSM spaces as it is neither safe nor respectful of non BDSM folks. For some folks, for example, even the use of the phrase "without permission" regarding what one person in a relationship can do, can be seen as very offensive or abusive. This can very quickly shut them down to the deeper issue being discussed ( which is about gender and roles within a relationship). It's akin to going to a public restaurant and using your slave as an ashtray. It becomes neither safe for you or your slave and definitely non-consensual for anyone else trying to just have dinner. Does that make sense? Most old school ( Old Guard) Leather folk I know actually never make public display of their proclivities unless in Leather space. It is part of a long history of abuse that they have evolved into compartmentalizing different aspects of their lives safely and respectfully.

jess i do not feel anyone has been inappropriate here when discussing this topic.. my Ms and her Peers have and i trust will always treat the public eye with respect. your scenario above will never be my life. if it is somebody else's life then i am sorry for them and hope these words help. what proclivities do you speak of?? i am not sure why you are bringing Old Guard into this, do you?(i have permission from my Ms to ask you to contact me through PM in regards to Old Guard out of respect for protocol and respect for this thread, i will only discuss Old Guard with you nothing else)



I truly hope that this makes sense and I hope you will know I am not attempting to do anything here other than honestly say, I do get where you are coming from regarding how the role you "choose" to live in with your partner. My role in my relationship shifts hats a hell of a lot. We DO compartmentalize the different aspects of who and what we are to one another and quite fluidly most of the time. Our "kink" is private. Our "power exchange" is private and honored. Our public display in the world at large is very respectful of one another in whatever manner is deemed appropriate for the setting. Read: "when in Rome.... etc" I as a Dominant do not place a submissive in a position to have to defend herself( himself) to unlearned people. Meaning, I don't introduce her to non-BDSM/Leather folk as my "girl" or allow for any discomfort or disrespect to be subjected by people who do not get it. There truly is a time and place for everything and there is a reason that folks who have been around a very long time will less and less frequently subject themselves to the admonishment of others who lack deeper understanding of the dynamic.

i am not sure where you are coming from. you say your kink is private yet you have revealed some of it throughout this website. so i am wondering why you contradict yourself? ? i have not once felt i am defending myself to "unlearned" people in here, and feel you are putting people down who don"t live in kink. again my public outings with my Ms and her Peers have never caused me discomfort or to feel disrespected. if someone we know or a stranger acts like an asshat it is on them not my Ms. will she defend me??...yes. again this is where our perspectives differ...i see the retreat of folks who have been around a long time as just being natural...there may be a small percentage of people that "retire" feels this what you say to be true for them. when i read this section of your post i see you bragging about your privacy and putting "unlearned" people (your words not mine) and retired kink folk in a place where they see themselves as victim. not really sure how it relates to the thread.



I guess what it comes down to for me is that if you want to live as an openly submissive boi or slave then you may have to accept that not everyone is going to get it and consider more carefully where you choose to reveal this information. Sometimes, I think that aspect has more to do with being understood than the gender/ role aspect or non-traditional roles within a relationship. It can be very off-putting to people who see S/m or any aspect of it as still stemming from abusive maligned relationships.

well then i would say to you...lucky for you, you are not an openly submissive boi or slave because you would have to settle with that attitude about it. i choose to take a different route in life, because i don't settle. again i will ask...what is going on in here that makes you believe to be offputting to people??

If you are able to hear the genuine respect I have for you and this subject, I would love to talk more about what non-traditional roles in relationships look like and how the evolution of relationships sometimes seems left behind in the b-f world even outside the M/s aspect.

jess have you read this thread???? the title??? cause we have been talking about that.you just don't seem to ever add anything...for me it feels like you just keep coming in here and picking certain details apart that hold no merit.

Thanks, Jess


Ya know what grant, i tried to have a conversation with you. It is obviously not going to work. Have a nice day, hope ya figure it out.

[Jess]

Thank you Little Duck for your very considerate rep comment.

[weatherboi]

jess my feedback has been just the opposite...so i will say again the intent of this thread is about femme led relationships and trans/butch bottoms..open to all...all have been invited to join...if something being said is a put off then let the thread know and we will respect that but so far i am not getting that feed back.


Bit, I agree. I think it is a great conversation and have received quite a few notes from other folks not into Leather/ BDSM who had felt they didn't really have a place to talk about it ( gender and relationship roles) and thought this was more for BDSM folks.

Thanks for what you shared. It makes perfect sense to me!

[WingsOnFire]

I love the way this discussion has continued and everyone can deal with issues and not turn it into a bash session. I have really enjoyed that so far about this site. I look forward to further discussions on this subject!

Edited to say... whoopppss... obviously I wasnt aware more discussions were going on..... I look forward to more discussions about what this thread is about.... Femme led relationships... ANY AND ALL Femme led relationships... June & Sachita... great input... thanks! I love reading everything everyone has to offer....

[weatherboi]

Little_Duck-
thanks for this...you are an incredible person and i am honored by your support!!!! i love all you guys very much!!!

You da bomb!
Grant

Originally Posted by Little_Duck

Hi everyone!!!

I am not much into posting about gender and stuff since I am like still trying to find who I am and I read ALOT of the things people I know have to say and I like Grant( though not into the whole spankie spankie thing ) am alllllllll about bossy girls!!! (hi June!!!!)

i like bossy girls too!!!

I think it's pretty sad and mean to say that you see Grant as female, I mean I even know at 21 that he ain't female, he is a dude, even our brother who is 9 gets it.

I guess thsi is why I just read, but since Grant is part of our family I needed to show props.

Mad props Grant!!!

We all love you for who you are and that is the guy who was there for our sister during surgery, and is there for our Mommy!!!

That is all I really had to say thank you!!!!

Bye June!!!

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

hi Toughy-

for me, the term 'bottoms run the fuck' illicits a 'slap in the face' so to speak to traditional kink values. it to me 'dumb downs' the idea of the power exchange. an oxymoron in phrase and theory. from my own perspective which is not the same perspective you come from. this works well in my relationship.

from my knees i say i can't/don't equate the theories my Ms or her Peers have to the level of humbleness in their hearts. my experience is they shine with great strength and that humbles me.

thanks for your comments......

I've been in and out of the kink community for around 30 years. It has always had a role in my life since I was in my 20's....I will be 58 in a couple of months. Sometimes I am part of the public kink community and sometimes I not, however that does not mean it is not part of my core being....it is.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'traditional kink values'. In my time, kink values have changed considerably. When I came out...........consent meant you walked in the door. There were no safe words. There was no negotiation in the sense we think of it today.

We kink folks have rightfully changed our values over time. We have gone from no rules, to Safe, Sane, Consensual (SSC), to Risk Aware Consensual Kink (RACK).

For Me.......'the bottom runs the fuck' is not a slap in anyone's face. It does not lessen the power dynamic....in My mind it enhances the power dynamic because we started as equals and she then gives Me the gift of her pain and submission.

Thanks for the conversation. It has been interesting.

edited to add: I cannot speak to the gay man Old Guard ways. In my time women were not allowed in that community. I do know that for many years in both the Old Guard and the women's kink community you had to start from the bottom. You earned your leathers by experiencing being on your knees. I know .....I've been there and will still go there when that 'itch' strikes. However I live in the kink world as a Top/Dom 99.5% of the time.

[SuperFemme]

WeatherBoi: I don't want you to walk away from this thread feeling like you have to hide who you are. That bugs me, and it feels like victim blaming to me.

I am proud of you for being your authentic self. That is the most we can hope for from any individual. Authenticity.

It does not matter if the demoralizing comes from folks who live a leather lifestyle or not. At the end of the day what is demoralizing is just that.

To *me* the dismissive way you are sometimes treated is deeply rooted in sexism and misogyny. People as a whole are socialized to believe that anything on the male spectrum equals powerful, strong, dominant, assertive and well, manly. Female equals demur, submissive, weak and a supporting role. Turning that learned thinking upside down on it's head is wildly subversive (and quite sexy to me).

I've seen that which you speak of in action. I am happy that you've not only started a thread about it, but that you've stuck it out thus far. Not because I don't think you can stick it out, but because it must get tiresome.

How do you think your community can best support you and be inclusive? What can I do? And what can anyone do on a person by person basis?

[christie]

I think that perhaps the obvious disconnect is that your inability/unwillingness to hear what Jess is trying to say to you is more of a personality conflict more than anything.

That being said, I think that this thread is more about power exchange from the very title: Femme LED and trans/butch bottom. Leading implies power and bottom is an obvious not in power BDSM term. I don’t think that you were implying sexual preferences and you went on to clarify that wasn’t the case. To use one of my favorite phrases, “Hell, even Ronnie Milsap could see that.”

Further, the thread was pointed in a power exchange direction in the very usage of words and the space/experience from which folks have responded.

If your intent was to bring awareness to feeling not supported or appreciated for your contribution and your relationship to others outside the BDSM world, I am hopeful you accomplish that. It is a dynamic that we don’t often see and its probably not what we think of when we hear/read “butch/femme”.

In reference to the issues of private vs. public and our kink, I think the intent was very clear. Since there seems to be a question, lets see if I can break it down more simply.

There are things about BDSM that are not for the public eye. If it were true that it was for public space, we would see people ottomans at fine dining restaurants and leashed folks at WalMart and Trader Joe’s. We might see a parent taking a child to school dressed in fetish wear and a ball gag while crawling across the pavement ushered by the crossing guard who happens to be in sissymaid attire.

As Jen mentioned in her post, there are some things you just don’t parade around the streets. Here and in other online communities that are kink friendly, we feel its safe to express, embrace and connect with like-minded folk and allies. While yes, the internet is a public place, there are BDSM forums where it is appropriate, neither Jess nor I feel that the nonBDSM forums are a place to fly that freak flag and that its akin to busting up in the local diner in a corset and thigh boots, while eversohot, might not be appreciated, supported or accepted or even welcome. To us, its about being as respectful of the “vanilla space” as much as we want our kink space respected.

I think perhaps you are making a concerted effort to not get what Jess is trying to say to you in that hy appreciates and supports both your role in your relationship AND that hy doesn’t see you as “less than”.

Perhaps one of the reasons that hy appreciates this is that hy is partnered with a strong woman who leads most anything she wants to lead, given that the first and foremost dynamic of our relationships is as partners – equals. I have always said it takes a helluva butch, strong and confident in self to NOT be intimidated by celebrating and encouraging hys/her/hyr partner/spouse/lover (pick a word) to be that strong, vibrant being she just inherently is.

One of Jess’s closest friends is a Femme Master. Her slave is her biomale hubby. They are former M/s title holders and I can assure you that neither of us see her slave as “less than” a man, or less than anything the hell else. He is probably one of the most incredibly intelligent, strong individuals I have ever encountered and is a completely, inherently devoted slave I have ever been privileged to know. Their relationship is a thing of beauty to bear witness to and I can’t possibly imagine being anything less than supportive of anyone in however they find their bliss.

In closing, I think that we don’t really need to continue to worry about the world in general “othering” us and making us feel less than because we seem to do a damn fine job in doing that to one another. We manage to pick one another apart and expend a great deal of energy rather than finding a common ground and supporting one another, in whatever relationship dynamic we choose

[SuperFemme]

Bottoming. It's not exclusive to BDSM. That is incredibly limiting.

[weatherboi]

hi apocalipstic

thank You very much for sharing your experiences, feelings and solutions about You and Mr. Cynthia's personal dynamic. my Ms is very specific about public outings and planned events as well. it makes time out away from the home very relaxing and easy for us so i can solely concentrate on my service. like You she does not want to set us up for failure. thanks and please accept my apologies for not responding to this sooner.

Grant

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I had to take a step back in appearing in Public with Mr. Cynthia as my submissive. When she is in submissive space in public, it is on a leash and no one is allowed to talk to her except for Me unless I give permission and I seldom do. (this only happens in private spaces, not at the grocery store or restaurants, I feel everyone should consent to seeing that stuff, not just My submissive)

Yes, I agree with Isadora, at first people propositioned her and a few other Femme and Butch friends acted like she should submit to them, hold their chairs, wait on them. They teased her and made little comments. I shut that down immediately, and I just will not place her in the position ever again. She can handle it but it infuriates me.

When we go to parties, we go as a non BDSM couple, unless it is Slut Night or a PLANNED IN ADVANCE BDSM party with pre-arranged rules. Not a party where people drink too much and suddenly people are getting beat next to the birthday cake.

I know Cynthia can handle people acting like idiots, but for some reason it lights my temper up faster than just about anything when people think they can mess with her. Brain melting FURY happens, so I try to keep public appearances at a minimum and avoid parties where non pre-planned BDSM is likely to happen.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Bottoming. It's not exclusive to BDSM. That is incredibly limiting.

In my relatively limited history, I had until here and now never heard anyone outside of a BDSM relationship refer to themselves as a bottom or top for that matter. If this is yet another new use of an old term then I have been remiss.

Could you please clarify the use of this term for me outside of the obvious BDSM connotation?

Thank you.

[christie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Bottoming. It's not exclusive to BDSM. That is incredibly limiting.

This is where it gets sticky for me. We redefine words.

Bottoming, as I understand it, and as I checked with a fellow kinkster with over 30 years experience, was a term coined to define a role for an individual on the receiving end of a scene who was not in a definable relationship with the Dominant/Sadist/Master (no offense meant to using nonfemale descriptors - assume them included)

I am curious to know how you see bottoming outside a power exchange/BDSM dynamic.

[Jess]

Thanks June. My only other guess was that it was a sexual positioning kind of usage of the term.

FYI, I think bossy women are hot. rawr

[christie]

Originally Posted by christie0918

This is where it gets sticky for me. We redefine words.

Bottoming, as I understand it, and as I checked with a fellow kinkster with over 30 years experience, was a term coined to define a role for an individual on the receiving end of a scene who was not in a definable relationship with the Dominant/Sadist/Master (no offense meant to using nonfemale descriptors - assume them included)

I am curious to know how you see bottoming outside a power exchange/BDSM dynamic.

I don't normally quote myself, but I thought I made it clear in my post that I acknowledged how bottoming can be about how you fuck, but also that the OP went on to clarify that wasn't the intent (or at least thats how I read it).

That being said, what other ways is "bottom" used if not in a BDSM/sexual connotation?