Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[SuperFemme]

A conversation such as this is important to have, and it is dismissive to come up in a conversation and school the author on where it should have been. In fact, the very act of doing so gives credence to the OP by putting hym in the *student* role and yourself in the *teacher* role when you two don't have that kind of familiarity.

I am not leather, and i totally get why this thread is in Gender, Labels, and Identities. It's about WeatherBoi and other subs/bois & D/s being treated as *less than* because of their identities.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

....putting hym in the *student* role and yourself in the *teacher* role....

Interesting how differently we sometimes interpret things... I didn't read it that way at all, Adele. I read it as one equal talking to another equal, asking a question about something that was puzzling--and then going on to give opinions about the issues weatherboi raised in his OP. It was the kind of post I would expect Jess to make to me or to anyone, yanno?

Maybe I read it that way because I'm geared that way; I absolutely refuse to see or treat others as anything but my equal unless they have specifically asked me to be Mama for them. To me, it doesn't matter what someone might be, or how deeply they might live in whatever space they choose; if they haven't chosen me personally to Mama them, they are my equal--by the same token, if I haven't chosen them to Daddy me, they are my equal.

I know there's a tradition online of putting a sub/girl/boy/slave's name all lowercase, and if I notice someone uses that convention for themselves, I will try to respect it the same way I respect pronoun choices for Butches--but that's all it is, paying respect to someone's preferred name/pronoun. They're still my equal.

[Apocalipstic]

I think it is a great thread since the subject is about Femme Led relationships, I am confused as to why it would be a problem for it to be in the gender labels section of the forums.

It does seem kind of Toppy to tell people how to word and where to place their threads.

Yes, I know it happens all the time, it happened just last week in the RedZone to Christie, so I get that Jess might think it is ok to do that. But it seems Toppy.

I just wish we could take things as face value and respect that the OP really meant what he asked in a variety of contexts, so the placement is perfect.

There are Femme led relationships not in the Leather Community.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by June

(Hi, LittleDuck - Now, take that back about me being bossy!)

I'm also glad this is out in the general forum, because for me, it's all about mutual respect and gaining a better understanding. We are having a lot of conversations here about power/empowerment right now, which I find fascinating!

In the past, I have dated Butch Tops and Transmen, what I found to be the case for me is that without exception, they Topped me in bed, but in all other aspects of our relationship, we were equal or I took the lead. Some people think "Top on the streets, bottom in the sheets" is a derogatory term. I don't think that at all, in fact, I think it very clearly defines who I am. I have also known Butch and Transmen who were like that as well, and they were kind of fun . It's not about "Flipping a Butch". It's about Desire. Even the meanest Butch Top I ever dated wanted to be held and comforted sometimes. I admire people who don't let their ego override their desires. Taking it up the whatever doesn't make you "less than" any more than serving as a table during a gathering does.

People forget that it's the bottom who is taking the lash. Any fool with some practice can manage a single tail, but the real strength comes from being able to take it. Frankly, I don't trust a Top who has never bottomed (Which is different to me than submitting). If you've never taken it, how can you give it? Perhaps that's another thread. But I am referring to people I have known in RL who claim to be Tops and when asked about their experience look at me in abject horror "NO, I could NEVER do that!" as though I had just suggested they suck on some day old underwear. *Spit*.

Great thread, weatherboi - Hang in there.

You rock June.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by June

In the past, I have dated Butch Tops and Transmen, what I found to be the case for me is that without exception, they Topped me in bed, but in all other aspects of our relationship, we were equal or I took the lead. Some people think "Top on the streets, bottom in the sheets" is a derogatory term. I don't think that at all, in fact, I think it very clearly defines who I am. I have also known Butch and Transmen who were like that as well, and they were kind of fun . It's not about "Flipping a Butch". It's about Desire. Even the meanest Butch Top I ever dated wanted to be held and comforted sometimes. I admire people who don't let their ego override their desires. Taking it up the whatever doesn't make you "less than" any more than serving as a table during a gathering does.

.

Well said June! This is sorta me. I found myself attracted to butch/masculine and the BF bedroom dynamic. Enjoy being a lady and made love to, pampered, adored, etc. At the same time in day to day the chances are I will lead the relationship because I'm good at it.

Part of me thinks that the perfect relationship for me is one who is strong and naturally dominant as I am. Maybe a Daddy type because I'm a spoiled little girl. But lately reading these threads, some of the phrases from some of you I get these pangs and my heart pounds when I think about topping. Sometimes Lady Snow will have the most simple sentence and I can "feel" something in me spark up.

90% of the time I am dominant and the subtle undertones of D/s excites me and then 10% of me wants to know I have the option to just let go.

[WingsOnFire]

I love the way this discussion has continued and everyone can deal with issues and not turn it into a bash session. I have really enjoyed that so far about this site. I look forward to further discussions on this subject!

Edited to say... whoopppss... obviously I wasnt aware more discussions were going on..... I look forward to more discussions about what this thread is about.... Femme led relationships... ANY AND ALL Femme led relationships... June & Sachita... great input... thanks! I love reading everything everyone has to offer....

[Little_Duck]

You are most welcome!!

Once again thank you for apologizing, thank you all for letting me express my feelings for a member our our family.

Little Duck is all about the bossy girls!!!

Peace out!

[Martina]

Originally Posted by June

It's about Desire. Even the meanest Butch Top I ever dated wanted to be held and comforted sometimes. I admire people who don't let their ego override their desires.

That struck me as odd. i think being comforted and held -- the need to be -- is not really a desire issue. Nor is it a D/s issue. If someone is a human being, they are going to need that at some point.

This also implies that Dominants are not vulnerable to their subs, or that if they are, that that takes them out of Top space. There is no way to be a Dominant and not be vulnerable to the sub. The sub knows the Dominant really well if she or he is going to do her job. i am assuming a longer term relationship.

This rankled. Dominants are human beings. They need what we all do. Some may not allow themselves to be comforted by submissives. They may get that from partners or friends. But the vast majority, i'd say, have had moments where the submissive has provided comfort and support. i think that is not an uncommon form of service and connection between a submissive and a Dominant. It's an intimate connection. Dominants let down their guard. In those moments, they are still Dominant.

[Random]

Hey Martina,

I don't want to derail the thread too much, so I will keep this brief..

For me this below statement is not true...

When I am in domme space, I am not vulnerable to my sub... There is no way that I can do my job and be emotional vulnerable. I can not give her what she needs/craves if I am not in complete control of my mind and body and emotions. Being that I am a sexual sadist, that would just be plain dangerous.

Originally Posted by Martina

This also implies that Dominants are not vulnerable to their subs, or that if they are, that that takes them out of Top space. There is no way to be a Dominant and not be vulnerable to the sub. The sub knows the Dominant really well if she or he is going to do her job. i am assuming a longer term relationship.

[Martina]

i didn't mean during bdsm play. i meant if you have a D/s relationship. Over time, your sub has to know you if she or he is to serve you well. You have to be KNOWN to them. That is a kind of vulnerability. There are others. But that's the sort of thing i meant.

Originally Posted by Random

Hey Martina,

I don't want to derail the thread too much, so I will keep this brief..

For me this below statement is not true...

When I am in domme space, I am not vulnerable to my sub... There is no way that I can do my job and be emotional vulnerable. I can not give her what she needs/craves if I am not in complete control of my mind and body and emotions. Being that I am a sexual sadist, that would just be plain dangerous.

[Random]

Originally Posted by Martina

i didn't mean during bdsm play. i meant if you have a D/s relationship. Over time, your sub has to know you if she or he is to serve you well. You have to be KNOWN to them. That is a kind of vulnerability. There are others. But that's the sort of thing i meant.

Ah... Different views...

I don't view what is in me as play... not in the least bit (I understand the way you used it)

For me... My partner is getting to know me, is peeling me like an onion and I her... That is part of any heathy relationship...

For me that has nothing to do with submission and dominance..

[Medusa]

In my relationship with Jack, I am the boss of her.
I am, however, still amused to this day when I think back to how many times someone thought that I was her "Mommy" or that she was my submissive in the bedroom.
*snort*

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by Martina

<snip>

i like seeing boys exposed and hungry and afraid and adoring their Tops.

<snip>

Aw, have you met my Pete?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Random

For me... My partner is getting to know me, is peeling me like an onion and I her... That is part of any heathy relationship...

For me that has nothing to do with submission and dominance..

No, it doesn't necessarily. It's part of any relationship as you say. But for some people it does have to do with D/s. It does for me, for example, because i am 24/7.

[Isadora]

All relationships are about energy exchange, not necessarily about "power" exchange, but I don't know a relationship that has lasted longer then a couple years that does not at some point deal with balance of "power". Especially since, in my understanding, this is not a BDSM thread and therefore BDSM and D/S relationships have a unique form of power exchange.

My grandmother ran the household. She was bossy. My grandfather adored her and his always strove to make her happy. She led fearlessly. He followed willingly. They, as far as I know, were not a BDSM couple.

My Great Aunt Laura thew her abusive father out of the house when she was 16 and with her brother George (a year older then her) supported and raised her 8 younger brother and sisters and she ran her husband the same way. Mr. Ward did everything she asked and loved her.

I am bossy. I like to be in control until I don't want to be. Heh. I boss Hawk around and have for years (going on 22). It is innate. I do not have a D/s relationship with Hawk. Hawk is not my bottom/boi. Hawk is my spousal unit we have very clear understandings of how our energy is exchanged. Heh.

Now I remember hearing my Grandpa's younger brother once say that my Grandfather was "hen pecked" but I never ever in years of being with them heard him complain or do anything but agree with her. Except when he would slip me money when she was not around. *soft smile* Sometimes outside observations of people's relationships is assumptive and annulling.

I think this is where I get confused when taking/co-opting/borrowing/re-defining D/s leather language (i.e. bottom) and using it in vanilla or other flavors of relationships. I see common language as a feature of a "culture" and when I see it out of cultural contest, I have to be the "hanged man" and look from upside down to see from a different point of view. Everyone does that at a different angle and sometimes no matter how many ways I look at it, it just doesn't work for me. But I always try to look.

So, my point is relationships, are like snowflakes, each one unique and beautiful or disgusting in its own little way.

[Martina]

It's not about you. i just get tired of all these sideways swipes at Tops, as if that's OK. It happens a lot.

Originally Posted by June

Martina? What are you going on about? Did I say that ALL Tops don't have a lot of expertise? Were you inferring that ALL Tops do? Neither of those statements would be true. And, I didn't say anything about ALL Tops.

And yes, it does take a lot of personal knowledge and self-control to run a good scene. You seem to be taking all of my personal point of view and personal experiences very personally. I was not speaking for you.

And I really don't appreciate you taking a tiny piece of my post and responding to it out of context. I further said *I* do not trust a Top that has not bottomed. You can feel free to trust anyone you like.

If you are having a personal issue with me as a member expressing my opinions, please feel free to PM me. Otherwise, what we're doing is going to start looking like a derail.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by June

People forget that it's the bottom who is taking the lash. Any fool with some practice can manage a single tail, but the real strength comes from being able to take it.

i am not trying to be picky, but even this is just not true. It's just not. Tops have a lot of expertise, and it takes a lot of personal knowledge and self-control to run a good scene.

Anyway, enough.