Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[Little_Duck]

You are most welcome!!

Once again thank you for apologizing, thank you all for letting me express my feelings for a member our our family.

Little Duck is all about the bossy girls!!!

Peace out!

[SuperFemme]

Bottoming for *me* is not about a sexual position. I am not in the leather scene but I don't think one has to be in order to enjoy sexual power exchanges.

I get that Bottom traditionally is talked about in the leather sense, but I think that it has expanded beyond that.

I mean NO disrespect to anyone for whom Bottoming IS a leather activity. I appreciate all realms of sexuality.

eta: if we want to deconstruct this further please pm me. i don't want to derail this thread.

[weatherboi]

my first relationship was Femme led and i was bottom in bed and the decision making. No BDSM involved at all. i don't feel like that relationship was about power exchange as much as it was about it just being natural...i mean there is an obvious power exchange but it was something we fell into. we did not speak about it or negotiate anything...it was just a natural flow.

Good thing to bring up and look at!!!
Thanks!!!

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Bottoming. It's not exclusive to BDSM. That is incredibly limiting.

Originally Posted by June

I'm going to redirect this back to the topic, which is:

Femme led Relationships and Trans/Butch Bottoms

I think it has been made clear by the placement of the thread and subsequent conversations that this is not specifically a BDSM D/s thread, but rather for the discussion of Butches and Transmen who happen to like "Bossy Girls/Women". Of course there will be an aspect of BDSM D/s included because there is definite cross-over.

However, in answer to Jess' question, even though you didn't ask me, without sharing too much, I am not involved in a D/s relationship with my partner, however, I do consider myself as a bottom in bed. That may not jibe up with how it works for you, but it does, so far work for us.

And, I'm also real, real bossy.

Carry on - Please be respectful, and if you find there are folks you can't or won't see eye to eye with, then please don't engage with them, poke at them, etc. And this extends to partners, lovers and friends.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

WeatherBoi: I don't want you to walk away from this thread feeling like you have to hide who you are. That bugs me, and it feels like victim blaming to me.
i can't/won't walk away Ms #2...lol...i had to go look up victim blaming...i don't feel the this is happening...i think in threads like this it is hard to keep the topic on point...so i push forward learning what i can.

I am proud of you for being your authentic self. That is the most we can hope for from any individual. Authenticity.
this makes me wanna cry. thank You...i appreciate your perspective on this topic and it is valuable to me.

It does not matter if the demoralizing comes from folks who live a leather lifestyle or not. At the end of the day what is demoralizing is just that.

To *me* the dismissive way you are sometimes treated is deeply rooted in sexism and misogyny. People as a whole are socialized to believe that anything on the male spectrum equals powerful, strong, dominant, assertive and well, manly. Female equals demur, submissive, weak and a supporting role. Turning that learned thinking upside down on it's head is wildly subversive (and quite sexy to me).

in therapy when addressing my trans and misogyny/sexism it revolves around experiences i had with a very misogynistic father and how that comes into play with how i hear women...and when discussing my Femme led relationship we discuss mysandry/ misogyny and sexism...it is hard for me to openly talk about my own misogyny...not so much about the misogyny/mysandry i endure...my therapist pointed this out to me and the only conclusion i could come to for myself was lack of not wanting to be accountable for my stuff...

I've seen that which you speak of in action. I am happy that you've not only started a thread about it, but that you've stuck it out thus far. Not because I don't think you can stick it out, but because it must get tiresome.

How do you think your community can best support you and be inclusive? What can I do? And what can anyone do on a person by person basis?

my community has supported me by giving a space for support to a type of relationship that also needs examination. my intention was to have this space be for anybody and everybody.

Ms#2 look at all You do already...lobster anyone??

i can't really say what people can do per say but i would like to ask people keep an open mind when posting in here.

thank you thank you

[Martina]

Originally Posted by June

It's about Desire. Even the meanest Butch Top I ever dated wanted to be held and comforted sometimes. I admire people who don't let their ego override their desires.

That struck me as odd. i think being comforted and held -- the need to be -- is not really a desire issue. Nor is it a D/s issue. If someone is a human being, they are going to need that at some point.

This also implies that Dominants are not vulnerable to their subs, or that if they are, that that takes them out of Top space. There is no way to be a Dominant and not be vulnerable to the sub. The sub knows the Dominant really well if she or he is going to do her job. i am assuming a longer term relationship.

This rankled. Dominants are human beings. They need what we all do. Some may not allow themselves to be comforted by submissives. They may get that from partners or friends. But the vast majority, i'd say, have had moments where the submissive has provided comfort and support. i think that is not an uncommon form of service and connection between a submissive and a Dominant. It's an intimate connection. Dominants let down their guard. In those moments, they are still Dominant.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by June

People forget that it's the bottom who is taking the lash. Any fool with some practice can manage a single tail, but the real strength comes from being able to take it.

i am not trying to be picky, but even this is just not true. It's just not. Tops have a lot of expertise, and it takes a lot of personal knowledge and self-control to run a good scene.

Anyway, enough.

[Random]

Originally Posted by Toughy

edited to add: I am mystified, sometimes, at how some folks just don't want to see the power inherent in being a bottom/sub.....

I am mystified by these blinders myself..

For me..

Submission is powerful... strong.... awe inspiring... The trust in the eyes... The willingness/ablility to give up control to someone else.. To trust that they are going to take you where you need to go, give you what you crave...and in that submission they are allowing me to give them what I need to give...

Awe Inspiring...

[Martina]

There is one Femme Top and Her boi (butch) who i love to see play. It is sooo hot. i have seen her serve the Dominant as well. Always hot and respectful and playful. Very dignified except when the poor boy was screaming in fear and pain.

However, i have wondered whether i have some of this prejudice. i have reacted to a few Femme Dominant-butch/trans sub couples with some squick. So i gave it a lot of thought.

i LOVE seeing butch-butch play and D/s. Nothing hotter, so clearly seeing boys abject in their submission and bottom space is not the issue. i like seeing boys exposed and hungry and afraid and adoring their Tops. Very hot.

Plus, i myself serve Femme Tops. So i was mystified by my reaction.

i figured it out finally. Quite a few of the boys i had seen with Femme Dominants ran a lot of puppy energy with their Ma'ams. Puppy energy at best just flattens me. At worst it is a big squick. (This is MY problem. i also get freaked by seeing folks in DEEP babygirl space, so it's not all about gender. Plus girls can be puppies.)

But i have thought about this -- whether i was someone who shared this prejudice.

i think i do in some ways. i had an acquaintance who is trans. He did not have a job for a long while and was making his femme partner fairly miserable during this period. So part of my displeasure with him was how big of a jerk he was being to his partner. But i also experienced that deep sexist judgement about a man not making a living, not supporting himself and, in fact, being supported by a woman. i REALLY experienced that. i was shocked at myself. This relationship was not femme-lead. But i do mention it because it was that kind of "man-up" reaction that i had. i was like how can you take up so much space and be such a foul mess when you aren't even making any money? i was floored by that reaction in me. But i had it.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by June

I'm going to redirect this back to the topic, which is:

Femme led Relationships and Trans/Butch Bottoms

I think it has been made clear by the placement of the thread and subsequent conversations that this is not specifically a BDSM D/s thread, but rather for the discussion of Butches and Transmen who happen to like "Bossy Girls/Women". Of course there will be an aspect of BDSM D/s included because there is definite cross-over.

However, in answer to Jess' question, even though you didn't ask me, without sharing too much, I am not involved in a D/s relationship with my partner, however, I do consider myself as a bottom in bed. That may not jibe up with how it works for you, but it does, so far work for us.

And, I'm also real, real bossy.

Carry on - Please be respectful, and if you find there are folks you can't or won't see eye to eye with, then please don't engage with them, poke at them, etc. And this extends to partners, lovers and friends.

I like that, "Bossy Bottom". I would say that could define me but I think it's much deeper then that but what a great term.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

my first relationship was Femme led and i was bottom in bed and the decision making. No BDSM involved at all. i don't feel like that relationship was about power exchange as much as it was about it just being natural...i mean there is an obvious power exchange but it was something we fell into. we did not speak about it or negotiate anything...it was just a natural flow.

Good thing to bring up and look at!!!
Thanks!!!

Thank you for this thread btw. It's been really thought provoking and constructive for me.

I use to tell people when asked what I was into "erotic control". In my opinion female domination was not BDSM. There are elements within FD that look like BDSM and when one is a seductress hunting and harvesting erotic control they before artful with the play. I became experienced at BDSM play not because I flog someone and get off on rolling a whip against naked flesh but the dynamic it's building between the two of us. I don't need to have bdsm play in my D/s to feel a power exhausting. The subtle innuendos that seduce us deeper into that sexual space is chemistry unlike the typical vanilla dynamic. For me it's constant and always there even when we are appearing to be the typical butch-femme couple, laying on my back getting fucked or cuddling up on his shoulder.

[Random]

Hey Martina,

I don't want to derail the thread too much, so I will keep this brief..

For me this below statement is not true...

When I am in domme space, I am not vulnerable to my sub... There is no way that I can do my job and be emotional vulnerable. I can not give her what she needs/craves if I am not in complete control of my mind and body and emotions. Being that I am a sexual sadist, that would just be plain dangerous.

Originally Posted by Martina

This also implies that Dominants are not vulnerable to their subs, or that if they are, that that takes them out of Top space. There is no way to be a Dominant and not be vulnerable to the sub. The sub knows the Dominant really well if she or he is going to do her job. i am assuming a longer term relationship.

[Martina]

i didn't mean during bdsm play. i meant if you have a D/s relationship. Over time, your sub has to know you if she or he is to serve you well. You have to be KNOWN to them. That is a kind of vulnerability. There are others. But that's the sort of thing i meant.

Originally Posted by Random

Hey Martina,

I don't want to derail the thread too much, so I will keep this brief..

For me this below statement is not true...

When I am in domme space, I am not vulnerable to my sub... There is no way that I can do my job and be emotional vulnerable. I can not give her what she needs/craves if I am not in complete control of my mind and body and emotions. Being that I am a sexual sadist, that would just be plain dangerous.

[Random]

Originally Posted by Martina

i didn't mean during bdsm play. i meant if you have a D/s relationship. Over time, your sub has to know you if she or he is to serve you well. You have to be KNOWN to them. That is a kind of vulnerability. There are others. But that's the sort of thing i meant.

Ah... Different views...

I don't view what is in me as play... not in the least bit (I understand the way you used it)

For me... My partner is getting to know me, is peeling me like an onion and I her... That is part of any heathy relationship...

For me that has nothing to do with submission and dominance..

[Medusa]

In my relationship with Jack, I am the boss of her.
I am, however, still amused to this day when I think back to how many times someone thought that I was her "Mommy" or that she was my submissive in the bedroom.
*snort*

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by Martina

<snip>

i like seeing boys exposed and hungry and afraid and adoring their Tops.

<snip>

Aw, have you met my Pete?

[Martina]

It's not about you. i just get tired of all these sideways swipes at Tops, as if that's OK. It happens a lot.

Originally Posted by June

Martina? What are you going on about? Did I say that ALL Tops don't have a lot of expertise? Were you inferring that ALL Tops do? Neither of those statements would be true. And, I didn't say anything about ALL Tops.

And yes, it does take a lot of personal knowledge and self-control to run a good scene. You seem to be taking all of my personal point of view and personal experiences very personally. I was not speaking for you.

And I really don't appreciate you taking a tiny piece of my post and responding to it out of context. I further said *I* do not trust a Top that has not bottomed. You can feel free to trust anyone you like.

If you are having a personal issue with me as a member expressing my opinions, please feel free to PM me. Otherwise, what we're doing is going to start looking like a derail.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Random

For me... My partner is getting to know me, is peeling me like an onion and I her... That is part of any heathy relationship...

For me that has nothing to do with submission and dominance..

No, it doesn't necessarily. It's part of any relationship as you say. But for some people it does have to do with D/s. It does for me, for example, because i am 24/7.

[Isadora]

All relationships are about energy exchange, not necessarily about "power" exchange, but I don't know a relationship that has lasted longer then a couple years that does not at some point deal with balance of "power". Especially since, in my understanding, this is not a BDSM thread and therefore BDSM and D/S relationships have a unique form of power exchange.

My grandmother ran the household. She was bossy. My grandfather adored her and his always strove to make her happy. She led fearlessly. He followed willingly. They, as far as I know, were not a BDSM couple.

My Great Aunt Laura thew her abusive father out of the house when she was 16 and with her brother George (a year older then her) supported and raised her 8 younger brother and sisters and she ran her husband the same way. Mr. Ward did everything she asked and loved her.

I am bossy. I like to be in control until I don't want to be. Heh. I boss Hawk around and have for years (going on 22). It is innate. I do not have a D/s relationship with Hawk. Hawk is not my bottom/boi. Hawk is my spousal unit we have very clear understandings of how our energy is exchanged. Heh.

Now I remember hearing my Grandpa's younger brother once say that my Grandfather was "hen pecked" but I never ever in years of being with them heard him complain or do anything but agree with her. Except when he would slip me money when she was not around. *soft smile* Sometimes outside observations of people's relationships is assumptive and annulling.

I think this is where I get confused when taking/co-opting/borrowing/re-defining D/s leather language (i.e. bottom) and using it in vanilla or other flavors of relationships. I see common language as a feature of a "culture" and when I see it out of cultural contest, I have to be the "hanged man" and look from upside down to see from a different point of view. Everyone does that at a different angle and sometimes no matter how many ways I look at it, it just doesn't work for me. But I always try to look.

So, my point is relationships, are like snowflakes, each one unique and beautiful or disgusting in its own little way.

[Medusa]

I missed this post Isadora, but wanted to say that I found it quite powerful and lovely

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Isadora

All relationships are about energy exchange, not necessarily about "power" exchange, but I don't know a relationship that has lasted longer then a couple years that does not at some point deal with balance of "power". Especially since, in my understanding, this is not a BDSM thread and therefore BDSM and D/S relationships have a unique form of power exchange.

My grandmother ran the household. She was bossy. My grandfather adored her and his always strove to make her happy. She led fearlessly. He followed willingly. They, as far as I know, were not a BDSM couple.

My Great Aunt Laura thew her abusive father out of the house when she was 16 and with her brother George (a year older then her) supported and raised her 8 younger brother and sisters and she ran her husband the same way. Mr. Ward did everything she asked and loved her.

I am bossy. I like to be in control until I don't want to be. Heh. I boss Hawk around and have for years (going on 22). It is innate. I do not have a D/s relationship with Hawk. Hawk is not my bottom/boi. Hawk is my spousal unit we have very clear understandings of how our energy is exchanged. Heh.

Now I remember hearing my Grandpa's younger brother once say that my Grandfather was "hen pecked" but I never ever in years of being with them heard him complain or do anything but agree with her. Except when he would slip me money when she was not around. *soft smile* Sometimes outside observations of people's relationships is assumptive and annulling.

I think this is where I get confused when taking/co-opting/borrowing/re-defining D/s leather language (i.e. bottom) and using it in vanilla or other flavors of relationships. I see common language as a feature of a "culture" and when I see it out of cultural contest, I have to be the "hanged man" and look from upside down to see from a different point of view. Everyone does that at a different angle and sometimes no matter how many ways I look at it, it just doesn't work for me. But I always try to look.

So, my point is relationships, are like snowflakes, each one unique and beautiful or disgusting in its own little way.

You have such a beautifully articulate and yet simple way of saying things. Sometimes I struggle with words, finding definitions that dont fit just so I can communicate without being misunderstood. How I am, like you bossy etc, on a day to day is not part of the Goddess Femdom Diva in me. That aspect of me looks for magic, a connection way beyond words that leaves me breathless.

I was speaking to a boi that is wanting my attention trying to describe who i am and the type of connection I'm looking for. Aside from my day to day, a strong bossy independent woman, the Mistress in me needs a constant tempo and exchange of adoration and worship. This can only be met by one who truly has a need and desire to give this. It won't work if you're giving it just to win me. They need to give as much as I need to take or in some cases receive what I project.

I will be the first one to say "I'm a bitch with double standards." I think its great when hy says "I love that about you."