Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[SuperFemme]

WeatherBoi: I don't want you to walk away from this thread feeling like you have to hide who you are. That bugs me, and it feels like victim blaming to me.

I am proud of you for being your authentic self. That is the most we can hope for from any individual. Authenticity.

It does not matter if the demoralizing comes from folks who live a leather lifestyle or not. At the end of the day what is demoralizing is just that.

To *me* the dismissive way you are sometimes treated is deeply rooted in sexism and misogyny. People as a whole are socialized to believe that anything on the male spectrum equals powerful, strong, dominant, assertive and well, manly. Female equals demur, submissive, weak and a supporting role. Turning that learned thinking upside down on it's head is wildly subversive (and quite sexy to me).

I've seen that which you speak of in action. I am happy that you've not only started a thread about it, but that you've stuck it out thus far. Not because I don't think you can stick it out, but because it must get tiresome.

How do you think your community can best support you and be inclusive? What can I do? And what can anyone do on a person by person basis?

[christie]

I think that perhaps the obvious disconnect is that your inability/unwillingness to hear what Jess is trying to say to you is more of a personality conflict more than anything.

That being said, I think that this thread is more about power exchange from the very title: Femme LED and trans/butch bottom. Leading implies power and bottom is an obvious not in power BDSM term. I don’t think that you were implying sexual preferences and you went on to clarify that wasn’t the case. To use one of my favorite phrases, “Hell, even Ronnie Milsap could see that.”

Further, the thread was pointed in a power exchange direction in the very usage of words and the space/experience from which folks have responded.

If your intent was to bring awareness to feeling not supported or appreciated for your contribution and your relationship to others outside the BDSM world, I am hopeful you accomplish that. It is a dynamic that we don’t often see and its probably not what we think of when we hear/read “butch/femme”.

In reference to the issues of private vs. public and our kink, I think the intent was very clear. Since there seems to be a question, lets see if I can break it down more simply.

There are things about BDSM that are not for the public eye. If it were true that it was for public space, we would see people ottomans at fine dining restaurants and leashed folks at WalMart and Trader Joe’s. We might see a parent taking a child to school dressed in fetish wear and a ball gag while crawling across the pavement ushered by the crossing guard who happens to be in sissymaid attire.

As Jen mentioned in her post, there are some things you just don’t parade around the streets. Here and in other online communities that are kink friendly, we feel its safe to express, embrace and connect with like-minded folk and allies. While yes, the internet is a public place, there are BDSM forums where it is appropriate, neither Jess nor I feel that the nonBDSM forums are a place to fly that freak flag and that its akin to busting up in the local diner in a corset and thigh boots, while eversohot, might not be appreciated, supported or accepted or even welcome. To us, its about being as respectful of the “vanilla space” as much as we want our kink space respected.

I think perhaps you are making a concerted effort to not get what Jess is trying to say to you in that hy appreciates and supports both your role in your relationship AND that hy doesn’t see you as “less than”.

Perhaps one of the reasons that hy appreciates this is that hy is partnered with a strong woman who leads most anything she wants to lead, given that the first and foremost dynamic of our relationships is as partners – equals. I have always said it takes a helluva butch, strong and confident in self to NOT be intimidated by celebrating and encouraging hys/her/hyr partner/spouse/lover (pick a word) to be that strong, vibrant being she just inherently is.

One of Jess’s closest friends is a Femme Master. Her slave is her biomale hubby. They are former M/s title holders and I can assure you that neither of us see her slave as “less than” a man, or less than anything the hell else. He is probably one of the most incredibly intelligent, strong individuals I have ever encountered and is a completely, inherently devoted slave I have ever been privileged to know. Their relationship is a thing of beauty to bear witness to and I can’t possibly imagine being anything less than supportive of anyone in however they find their bliss.

In closing, I think that we don’t really need to continue to worry about the world in general “othering” us and making us feel less than because we seem to do a damn fine job in doing that to one another. We manage to pick one another apart and expend a great deal of energy rather than finding a common ground and supporting one another, in whatever relationship dynamic we choose

[SuperFemme]

Bottoming. It's not exclusive to BDSM. That is incredibly limiting.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Bottoming. It's not exclusive to BDSM. That is incredibly limiting.

In my relatively limited history, I had until here and now never heard anyone outside of a BDSM relationship refer to themselves as a bottom or top for that matter. If this is yet another new use of an old term then I have been remiss.

Could you please clarify the use of this term for me outside of the obvious BDSM connotation?

Thank you.

[Jess]

Thanks June. My only other guess was that it was a sexual positioning kind of usage of the term.

FYI, I think bossy women are hot. rawr

[SuperFemme]

Bottoming for *me* is not about a sexual position. I am not in the leather scene but I don't think one has to be in order to enjoy sexual power exchanges.

I get that Bottom traditionally is talked about in the leather sense, but I think that it has expanded beyond that.

I mean NO disrespect to anyone for whom Bottoming IS a leather activity. I appreciate all realms of sexuality.

eta: if we want to deconstruct this further please pm me. i don't want to derail this thread.

[weatherboi]

my first relationship was Femme led and i was bottom in bed and the decision making. No BDSM involved at all. i don't feel like that relationship was about power exchange as much as it was about it just being natural...i mean there is an obvious power exchange but it was something we fell into. we did not speak about it or negotiate anything...it was just a natural flow.

Good thing to bring up and look at!!!
Thanks!!!

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Bottoming. It's not exclusive to BDSM. That is incredibly limiting.

Originally Posted by June

I'm going to redirect this back to the topic, which is:

Femme led Relationships and Trans/Butch Bottoms

I think it has been made clear by the placement of the thread and subsequent conversations that this is not specifically a BDSM D/s thread, but rather for the discussion of Butches and Transmen who happen to like "Bossy Girls/Women". Of course there will be an aspect of BDSM D/s included because there is definite cross-over.

However, in answer to Jess' question, even though you didn't ask me, without sharing too much, I am not involved in a D/s relationship with my partner, however, I do consider myself as a bottom in bed. That may not jibe up with how it works for you, but it does, so far work for us.

And, I'm also real, real bossy.

Carry on - Please be respectful, and if you find there are folks you can't or won't see eye to eye with, then please don't engage with them, poke at them, etc. And this extends to partners, lovers and friends.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

my first relationship was Femme led and i was bottom in bed and the decision making. No BDSM involved at all. i don't feel like that relationship was about power exchange as much as it was about it just being natural...i mean there is an obvious power exchange but it was something we fell into. we did not speak about it or negotiate anything...it was just a natural flow.

Good thing to bring up and look at!!!
Thanks!!!

Thank you for this thread btw. It's been really thought provoking and constructive for me.

I use to tell people when asked what I was into "erotic control". In my opinion female domination was not BDSM. There are elements within FD that look like BDSM and when one is a seductress hunting and harvesting erotic control they before artful with the play. I became experienced at BDSM play not because I flog someone and get off on rolling a whip against naked flesh but the dynamic it's building between the two of us. I don't need to have bdsm play in my D/s to feel a power exhausting. The subtle innuendos that seduce us deeper into that sexual space is chemistry unlike the typical vanilla dynamic. For me it's constant and always there even when we are appearing to be the typical butch-femme couple, laying on my back getting fucked or cuddling up on his shoulder.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by June

I'm going to redirect this back to the topic, which is:

Femme led Relationships and Trans/Butch Bottoms

I think it has been made clear by the placement of the thread and subsequent conversations that this is not specifically a BDSM D/s thread, but rather for the discussion of Butches and Transmen who happen to like "Bossy Girls/Women". Of course there will be an aspect of BDSM D/s included because there is definite cross-over.

However, in answer to Jess' question, even though you didn't ask me, without sharing too much, I am not involved in a D/s relationship with my partner, however, I do consider myself as a bottom in bed. That may not jibe up with how it works for you, but it does, so far work for us.

And, I'm also real, real bossy.

Carry on - Please be respectful, and if you find there are folks you can't or won't see eye to eye with, then please don't engage with them, poke at them, etc. And this extends to partners, lovers and friends.

I like that, "Bossy Bottom". I would say that could define me but I think it's much deeper then that but what a great term.

[christie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Bottoming. It's not exclusive to BDSM. That is incredibly limiting.

This is where it gets sticky for me. We redefine words.

Bottoming, as I understand it, and as I checked with a fellow kinkster with over 30 years experience, was a term coined to define a role for an individual on the receiving end of a scene who was not in a definable relationship with the Dominant/Sadist/Master (no offense meant to using nonfemale descriptors - assume them included)

I am curious to know how you see bottoming outside a power exchange/BDSM dynamic.

[christie]

Originally Posted by christie0918

This is where it gets sticky for me. We redefine words.

Bottoming, as I understand it, and as I checked with a fellow kinkster with over 30 years experience, was a term coined to define a role for an individual on the receiving end of a scene who was not in a definable relationship with the Dominant/Sadist/Master (no offense meant to using nonfemale descriptors - assume them included)

I am curious to know how you see bottoming outside a power exchange/BDSM dynamic.

I don't normally quote myself, but I thought I made it clear in my post that I acknowledged how bottoming can be about how you fuck, but also that the OP went on to clarify that wasn't the intent (or at least thats how I read it).

That being said, what other ways is "bottom" used if not in a BDSM/sexual connotation?

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

WeatherBoi: I don't want you to walk away from this thread feeling like you have to hide who you are. That bugs me, and it feels like victim blaming to me.
i can't/won't walk away Ms #2...lol...i had to go look up victim blaming...i don't feel the this is happening...i think in threads like this it is hard to keep the topic on point...so i push forward learning what i can.

I am proud of you for being your authentic self. That is the most we can hope for from any individual. Authenticity.
this makes me wanna cry. thank You...i appreciate your perspective on this topic and it is valuable to me.

It does not matter if the demoralizing comes from folks who live a leather lifestyle or not. At the end of the day what is demoralizing is just that.

To *me* the dismissive way you are sometimes treated is deeply rooted in sexism and misogyny. People as a whole are socialized to believe that anything on the male spectrum equals powerful, strong, dominant, assertive and well, manly. Female equals demur, submissive, weak and a supporting role. Turning that learned thinking upside down on it's head is wildly subversive (and quite sexy to me).

in therapy when addressing my trans and misogyny/sexism it revolves around experiences i had with a very misogynistic father and how that comes into play with how i hear women...and when discussing my Femme led relationship we discuss mysandry/ misogyny and sexism...it is hard for me to openly talk about my own misogyny...not so much about the misogyny/mysandry i endure...my therapist pointed this out to me and the only conclusion i could come to for myself was lack of not wanting to be accountable for my stuff...

I've seen that which you speak of in action. I am happy that you've not only started a thread about it, but that you've stuck it out thus far. Not because I don't think you can stick it out, but because it must get tiresome.

How do you think your community can best support you and be inclusive? What can I do? And what can anyone do on a person by person basis?

my community has supported me by giving a space for support to a type of relationship that also needs examination. my intention was to have this space be for anybody and everybody.

Ms#2 look at all You do already...lobster anyone??

i can't really say what people can do per say but i would like to ask people keep an open mind when posting in here.

thank you thank you