"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by PapaC

Finally... are refugees from trouble countries forbidden to talk of their experiences in the new country?
.

Totally NOT to derail the great conversation happening here.... but I had to make sure this was noted.

This was a great analogy for me (and maybe others resonate)

Brilliant, PapaC.

Thank you!

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I'm really bothered that Selenay is not feeling us being receptive.
I HEAR her saying b/f will never be dead, that it is simply evolving.

Perhaps that is the crux of the way we are answering?

Butch and Femme are genders to many of us. Identities we've carved out. To hear they are dead gives a mass gut reaction of NO WAY!

Now that I am meandering along thinking about this I realize that is how I have felt during this conversation. In my head I experienced a little fear along the lines of "Please don't erase us". In answering along the lines of that thinking am I erasing a younger generation? I fear I may be, but I don't want to do that.

I want to embrace the evolution of Queer however that may look. That doesn't mean my identity is in jeopardy.

That's really the point of my posting at all; I don't care if I'm dismissed, if you think I'm irrelevant and my post is, as well. Really, you're entitled to your opinions (even if they're wrong) just like I am.

My big issue is that there are so few other young people here. Why do we think that is? Is it, perhaps, because they were treated the same way I have? I've been on butch-femme websites since I was sixteen, so I've kind of grown up with a tough skin. What about people who haven't? What about people who don't know that when people are percieved as being mean, they aren't?

Nothing ever dies. Let's go back to the dead harpsichord--that became the piano. Latin became French and Spanish and Italian. Their evolution is what keeps them alive--why do we still know what Latin is while most people have never heard of Yana or Jassic? Latin became something new.

Originally Posted by June

Sidenote to Selly: I don't care how you identify, I love your voice, it energizes me and makes me think. It's Monday, come over here and be a Poodle with me. On alternate days, I'm a DolphinLion.

I'll be a poodle with you only if you'll be bunnicula with me every wednesday.

Originally Posted by Medusa

Mad love!

Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture?

Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them?

I also fully recognize that my "Femme" definitely isnt the same as it was 13 years ago. She is looking a lot less like Betty Crocker and a lot more like a cross between the Bride of Chuckie and my (favorite) archetype "Medusa" (hence the screen name).

Do you think that your own evolution of New Femme from Old Femme is a demarcation of a shift in Butch/Femme? I can't speak as to whether or not it's a change in the terminology or the culture, but my opinion is that the gay culture is shifting away from strict guidelines of what gender is, away from the binary of masculine and feminine, and that's affecting butch/femme.

Originally Posted by Boots13

but wondering what the younger generation thinks about us "oldsters" .

You're all old and mean but some of you can cook really well so we'll keep you around til we get your recipes but after that we're actually going to get rid of you.

[Arwen]

I think what it all boils down to for me is this:

I will call you(generic) what you(generic) want to be called. I would request the same courtesy in return.

Language discussions that revolve around age are, you will pardon the pun, as old as the hills.

"Kids these days" will all too soon be "the older crowd" and the "older crowd" will be ...well, not present.

So I guess I don't much care what anyone thinks of the term butch or the term femme other than as far as respecting my choice to use it. And I promise not to call you(generic) femme if you will give me another choice to use.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.
The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering about that.

[Duchess]

I have never put much energy into thinking about other people's choices unless they directly affect me. I think growing up in a multicultural home taught me tolerance for diversity as I exited the womb.

Femme fits perfectly for me because the term is a HUGE umbrella. There are so many layers to me, I can't simply identify as Transensual Femme, Stone Femme, etc....Being Femme or Butch is complex. There's no one way to do it.

If this ideaology doesn't work for the next person that's cool, because there's only one Duchess (thank God) and there's only one you. The important thing is to follow your instinct and not stay within the lines for definition's sake.


Duchess

[Bootboi]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think what it all boils down to for me is this:

I will call you(generic) what you(generic) want to be called. I would request the same courtesy in return.

So I guess I don't much care what anyone thinks of the term butch or the term femme other than as far as respecting my choice to use it. And I promise not to call you(generic) femme if you will give me another choice to use.

I'm with Arwen on this. I really think it's common sense but then as they say common sense isnt so common.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by cybersuebee

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I was wondering about that.

And actually, the more I thought about it I shouldnt even have said "parsed" because that implies that I changed the meaning somehow. I think I should have said "used the word as I interpreted it".

And just for the record: From Dictionary.com

antiquated - 4 dictionary results
an⋅ti⋅quat⋅ed  /ˈæntɪˌkweɪtɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ti-kwey-tid] Show IPA
Use antiquated in a Sentence
See web results for antiquated
See images of antiquated
–adjective 1. continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past; old-fashioned: antiquated attitudes.
2. no longer used; obsolete or obsolescent: The spinning wheel is an antiquated machine.
3. aged; old:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is why I couldnt really wrap my head around the idea of intentionally misrepresenting something as "antiquated" when it essentially means the same thing as "old" in the context in which I presented it. Language, a tricky tricky thing.

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Medusa

And actually, the more I thought about it I shouldnt even have said "parsed" because that implies that I changed the meaning somehow. I think I should have said "used the word as I interpreted it".

And just for the record: From Dictionary.com

antiquated - 4 dictionary results
an⋅ti⋅quat⋅ed  /ˈæntɪˌkweɪtɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ti-kwey-tid] Show IPA
Use antiquated in a Sentence
See web results for antiquated
See images of antiquated
–adjective 1. continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past; old-fashioned: antiquated attitudes.
2. no longer used; obsolete or obsolescent: The spinning wheel is an antiquated machine.
3. aged; old:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is why I couldnt really wrap my head around the idea of intentionally misrepresenting something as "antiquated" when it essentially means the same thing as "old" in the context in which I presented it. Language, a tricky tricky thing.

I'm confused. I don't understand what the hub-bub is over the word.
(yes, I said hub-bub).

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Bootboi

I'm with Arwen on this. I really think it's common sense but then as they say common sense isnt so common.

... just as being politically correct isn't correct anymore.
I think I finally understand what it means to get old. The generation gap concept has been epiphanized.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Medusa

And actually, the more I thought about it I shouldnt even have said "parsed" because that implies that I changed the meaning somehow. I think I should have said "used the word as I interpreted it".

And just for the record: From Dictionary.com

antiquated - 4 dictionary results
an⋅ti⋅quat⋅ed  /ˈæntɪˌkweɪtɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ti-kwey-tid] Show IPA
Use antiquated in a Sentence
See web results for antiquated
See images of antiquated
–adjective 1. continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past; old-fashioned: antiquated attitudes.
2. no longer used; obsolete or obsolescent: The spinning wheel is an antiquated machine.
3. aged; old:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is why I couldnt really wrap my head around the idea of intentionally misrepresenting something as "antiquated" when it essentially means the same thing as "old" in the context in which I presented it. Language, a tricky tricky thing.

Medusa...I LOVE LOVE LOVE that you used the word antiquated. I believe the word is very fitting and less jarring to my eyes and soul as "Old Terms". I also believe this discussion is very important and EVERY related site should be having it right now! I don't understand the concept of others coming in trying to start drama over you bringing up this discussion! No site or person has a patent on the subject! That's just common sense! I see you have good business and social sense!

What I have heard from the 21 crowd here in DFW is the "younger crowd" is more gender fluid and doesn't want to be boxed into a label. Maybe this isn't some new phenomena. It seems to be history repeating itself as others have said. If I remember back to when I was that age, it seems others that age around me felt the same way. Too busy doing other things rather than being too serious about dissecting ones self/soul/reflecting on the deeper meaning of it all. I've always heard and believe it's true for most that the 20s are about figuring out who you are. And in our 30s we finally accept ourselves. I'm sure that might explain why BF sites don't have a larger younger audience. Many in the younger generation haven't figured out yet if they are more butch, more femme, both or none of the above, and haven't figured out yet what specific type of person they are more attracted to. Not to mention, no telling how many times their minds, feelings, wants, needs and desires change. They are just being, experiencing and trying to see what fits and feels best. I have heard for the first time in all of my Gay Life a 21 year old refer to herself as a Femmestick!!! LoL!

What has been very interesting to me is being off the BF sites for a few years and coming back and seeing even the over 30 and up generation now coming out of the Butch/Femme boxes/labels and/or expanding them.

I have to say I love a feminine Femme...I hope she never vanishes and there are always some of her around!

[Apocalipstic]

Thanks for saying that BVD-O, it seems like most of the new terms are not for the more feminine of us. I wonder if its just Femmes who are antiquated.

[Darth Denkay]

The_Lady_Snow - you totally freaking rock - you are femme in all your glory!!!

Apoc - Femme is definitely not antiquated in my book.

Yes, there does seem to be some defensiveness in this discussion, based around perceived fear that we will be erased as a culture. It's understandable. Yes, my hackles raise when I think about butch/femme becoming obsolete. In my case though, it has more to do with losing our history than with my identity in particular. You see, I'm gonna be butch until the day I die (and if there's more after that I'll be butch then too). Regardless of how terms may shift, I will always be a butch - no one can take that away from me. What raises my hackles is a fear that we will lose/forget our history. Butch/femme is what started the lesbian community (lesbians existed long before, but butch/femme created the first organized community). This was in the 1940s. These individuals suffered, were humiliated, and died because they were not ashamed of who they were, and made our lot, as their descendants if you will, so much easier. It's the connection to our past that I am afraid of losing.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

This was in the 1940s. These individuals suffered, were humiliated, and died because they were not ashamed of who they were, and made our lot, as their descendants if you will, so much easier. It's the connection to our past that I am afraid of losing.

It can't be lost now *soft smile* it's right here. Every time we talk about our community and our history, we make it that much more resistant to being erased.

I think the wonder of the internet is that we, all of us together, are writing a history of the human race that will last as long as technology lasts... look at the books which are being put online, the movies, the music, the plays, the art--we as a race are archiving our own history as fast as we are able, to save it all. This is unprecedented, you know. We've never had the capability before, never had a way for an average person to make a mark on history like this, never had a way for entire countries to preserve their culture like this.

And, for what might well be the very first time ever and certainly for the first time in recorded history, OUR culture, our gay, Queer culture, is a huge part of the archive. This is a wonder to me. What an amazing time to be alive, when my words--the words of one small life--can be part of the actual archive of history!

This is our story. We're writing it together, all of us, from everywhere around the world.

[always2late]

I am a Femme. I was born a Femme and was one before I even heard the word. I embrace it and it is how I identify. I looove the term. And I also love the term "Butch", and the Butch/Femme dynamic. I find that it encompasses all that I love about myself, my own identity, and the ID of my partner. However, I do realize that these are my own personal preferences. I would never presume to label anyone with an ID not of their own choosing. I think what it all comes down to is respect. I do not disdain any new manner of identifying, on the contrary, I celebrate and embrace whatever identity one chooses to use to define themself. I just ask that I be allowed the same freedom of expression. No one has to agree with my choice of identity..they just need to respect it.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Thanks for saying that BVD-O, it seems like most of the new terms are not for the more feminine of us. I wonder if its just Femmes who are antiquated.

Sure Apocalipstic.... I LOVE antiquated Femmes !!!

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

It took me longer to get to where I wanted to be with my identity. I had no butch mentor. I didn't feel fluid. I felt quite isolated from how my circle of friends were. They mostly identified as lesbian, tweener, androgynous, gender neutral, and on. At the time, the only butch-femme dynamic that was visible to me were the rarely seen older couple. I wondered then if I was outdated before I had a chance to discover myself and 'be'.

I have thought more on Selenay's post and with the help of others that have done a better job of listening and responding to it, I think I grasp what she is saying. Out of curiosity, I would like to see where the generational evolution of human/sexuality/identities flows to. I think what is now called butch-femme will still navigate it's own river. Just as strong as it was and is.

Kosmo

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I will prolly get some flack for this but why is there such an uproar over terms, labels, etc?

Maybe I just see it as it to me, words that describe who we are.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

I will prolly get some flack for this but why is there such an uproar over terms, labels, etc?

Maybe I just see it as it to me, words that describe who we are.

For some it's important. Whether it's just a preference or whether it's a way to self-describe. I don't think it's as much of an "uproar" as much as a desire to understand different points of view.

To all: I am curious that butch and the variants thereof are so many but femme is only one (although girl/babygirl and trans-sensual femme are other terms I've seen to describe but I don't know that they have the same idea or are from the same concept as femme (??) )

So what would be a "modern" term for femme?

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Good point uproar might not have been the best word to use, but I understand where you are coming from as well

I too as Linus asked would like to hear the concepts for the femme term

[Unndunn]

I think it's interesting that there aren't many new terms being used in place of "femme." My guess is that it is related to two things, the first being femme invisibility. A lot of femmes aren't easy to differentiate from straight women. (please God help me to word this in the most femme-positive, supportive and affirming way possible...you know angry femmes scare me) I think there might be less of a need perceived to give them another label or descriptor besides feminine, femme, lady, woman, etc. I could be completely wrong, it's just a thought.

As for "butch" having more changes, I wonder if it is partly due to the way butch is often used as a negative, almost like a dirty word. Outside of this limited online world of butchfemmeplanet and other butch-femme sites being "too butch" can be a real problem. A quick scroll through the dating sites online will show ad after ad that says "no butches." It occurs in real time too. Butches stand out, it's hard to miss them.

I'm getting tired and it's probably a good time to just hit send rather than share all of my other hair-brained theories (I've got tons of them on every subject).