only another butch would understand

[Toughy]

Me in this color

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I don’t think it’s unreasonable either. I did take exception to some very specific language that felt exclusionary to me (whether by intent or not).

I’d like to note that BullDog initially recommended Tough Guise to all masculine individuals and suggested we all examine our masculinity. In subsequent posts by others, and yours here, the directive has been mysteriously pared down to focus more on those with male identity. The issue was presented as relevant to masculinity, not exclusively male identity. Then BullDog made the leap to male privilege. Unfortunately, marrying those two points as she did in her post has served to cloud the issue. I say “unfortunately” because I think each are worthy of further examination and dialog on their own.

Maybe the Tough Guise thread is the place for those discussions.

If we’re talking about masculinity and needing to examine it and how it plays out in online space, then there can be no exclusion from that responsibility for non-male id’ed butches, because to do so perpetuates the fallacy of a hierarchy (i.e., who has "more masculinity").

Actually I don't see it as a hierarchy. As I said earlier, I did leave out non male id'd folks. It was partially an oversight, but also pointed. I think that all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm for how men behave in general and in relation to women and to violence.

The conversation about male privilege and its relevance in this venue is one well worth having – as heated as it is likely to be.


I'm up for it.



When discussing male privilege you cannot lump male id’ed, non-transitioned (of the non-passing variety) individuals in with those who navigate the world at large as men. I know I wouldn’t be alone in enumerating the ways in which acknowledging my male, or even masculine, nature has never made anything “easier” for me. The very notion is absurd.

When talking about male privilege, don’t lump me in that pile because I have a preference for male pronouns in the very limited applications in my life where I can experience them. Accepting the assertion that I don’t have male privilege in real time, show me the ways in which it is viewed that male identified folks experience male privilege in an online space (outside of the aforementioned default male pronoun usage, which I have not personally experience).

Bottomline? I’m not trying to sell you what the patriarchy would have you buy. But, I reviewed the checklist – male privilege? I just don’t have it. I’m not in denial, I’m real. Further, I disbelieve transfolk can be saddled with it (other than as a veil, a veneer of privilege with serious limitations and exclusions). I do believe that a lot of what's being said here, however, sounds a lot like transphobia.

I would say this is a much larger conversation and this thread is probably not the thread.

Toughy, you said, “Because I pass on a daily basis as a man, I understand what white male privilege looks and feels like.” I’m going to accept that as your acknowledgement – just as you say others need to acknowledge - that you have male privilege. I applaud you for being willing to be the first to take that step forward. It’s one I, too, would have taken if I understood what it feels like to personally experience male privilege.

I generally try to avoid being a hypocrite .......<grin>. I absolutely have male privilege when I am seen as man and let me tell ya.............geez......what an eye opener it was when I figured it out.......

Respectfully, I have no desire to negate your (collective) experiences online of erasure, or of not being seen (though I do think you are very much seen and heard). I don’t want to dismiss or discredit your feelings around these issues (I have argued alongside some of you in defense of female masculinity). I simply believe that placing the responsibility for that condition on the male privilege of certain types of butches is invalid assignment.

Nor am I interested in negating anyone's individual experience. See above concerning responsibility.

[julieisafemme]

I hope it is ok for to me post here as a femme. I am partnered with a transmasculine butch. It is painful to hear these conversations when people get so upset that they want to leave or stop talking. I can hear the frustration and understand where both Bull Dog and Dylan are coming from.

The experience of male privilege that I see my partner enjoy is very different from that of a cisgendered male. His perspective as a butch and starting life as a female bodied person informs how he receives the privilege. Cisgendered men, in my experience, do not dissect or consider these everyday interactions as privilege. I also don't experience his male privilege the same way as I did when partnered with a biomale. It's all kind of new and we talk about it a lot. So because of this experience it does upset me to hear transmen taken to task and lumped in with biomales. It's not the same to me.

We had the great good fortune this Fall to attend Butch Voices and Gender Odyssey. I was so pleased at how respectfully these difficult conversations were handled at Butch Voices. Bear Bergmann and Jeanne Cordova did a fantastic job in moderating these topics. At Gender Odyssey it was amazing to see the range of gender expression and how people choose to live that gender expression. As a partner I appreciated hearing from other partners, women and men, whose gender and sexual orientation were different than mine.

It is possible to have these conversations and have everyone feel heard. Maybe not in this medium though.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Toughy

<snip>
Actually I don't see it as a hierarchy. As I said earlier, I did leave out non male id'd folks. It was partially an oversight, but also pointed. I think that all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm for how men behave in general and in relation to women and to violence.

Thanks for clarifying, Toughy.

Sometimes these conversations are rough stuff and we get the red ass over things others say, but it's all a process toward working it out, or, as e said:

For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.

And so I learned something in re-reading your words here, as I composed my reply.

You said (and it's been said here before a time or two)

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..."

I think we do have a responsibility, not necessarily to unpack our own backpack full of shit, but to lead by example. I believe we can demonstrate the better aspects of man/male, tempered with all that we've learned during our own discovery of self and growth.

Maybe at some point one of us will have the energy to start that thread. I know it's not going to be me tonight!

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Thanks for clarifying, Toughy.

Sometimes these conversations are rough stuff and we get the red ass over things others say, but it's all a process toward working it out, or, as e said:

For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.

And so I learned something in re-reading your words here, as I composed my reply.

You said (and it's been said here before a time or two)

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..."

I think we do have a responsibility, not necessarily to unpack our own backpack full of shit, but to lead by example. I believe we can demonstrate the better aspects of man/male, tempered with all that we've learned during our own discovery of self and growth.

Maybe at some point one of us will have the energy to start that thread. I know it's not going to be me tonight!

Mister Bent, for what it's worth that is what I meant in the post that you objected to:

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..." (Toughy)

I thought this was where our major bone of contention was. Perhaps not. We shall see.

I do agree with lead by example rather than the unpacking the knapsack stuff.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent, for what it's worth that is what I meant in the post that you objected to:

"...all folks who walk in the world as male and/or man have the greatest responsibility to begin dismantling the misogyny, false construct of masculine/male/man and change the paradigm..." (Toughy)

I thought this was where our major bone of contention was. Perhaps not. We shall see.

I do agree with lead by example rather than the unpacking the knapsack stuff.

No, I got that part from the git go.

But now that we're maybe making some headway with this load, let's not rehash that. I think it's well possible that if we continue on with the male privilege discussion - in it's own thread, I'm thinking - that we'll trip over it, and work our way through it there.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

No, I got that part from the git go.

But now that we're maybe making some headway with this load, let's not rehash that. I think it's well possible that if we continue on with the male privilege discussion - in it's own thread, I'm thinking - that we'll trip over it, and work our way through it there.

OK that's cool. No need to rehash. I will try to re-watch the video tomorrow, see if I have any thoughts on it. I know it is long.

To be continued...

Have a good night.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Medusa

This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.

With grace. With respect. With honor.

My femme voice may also be intrusive but I feel a need to be heard here.

I love that part of your post, there IS work to be done. We are the same folks that have participated in this same subject before. My eyes gaze over when I see shots being taken at someone for basically pointing out the obvious regarding this. It's not always about being what we perceive as right.


Grace, respect and honor, three little very powerful words.

I would like to say that I AM a butch ally. I want to learn, I want to hear the struggles of what has brought the butches of my community to where they are today. I honor their journey.

I feel an undertone of anger and that silences me. I want to ask questions and HEAR people because I do care, but I struggle to get past the atmospheric anger. We should and could all be proud of who we are without anyone taking offense to that. I should not feel a need to defend who I am because someone else posts about who they are. We are all equally important. I hope this conversation continues in a good light so I can learn more..

Great things come from critical thoughts. Bad things happen when those thoughts are disrespected.

I love my butch with all my heart and personally would not care how he chooses to ID, that is his preference. It's what in the heart that counts. I do however care a great deal about his journey, every step of it. I am so proud of who he is today and respect every step he took to get here. None of those steps should be dismissed, ever.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Toughy

It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way.

Toughy, I didn't see where you expanded on this statement anywhere and I know in some respects this has been addressed by others, but this bothers me. If this is an example of how others feel, it may explain to me why there seems to be this ongoing bucking up against this wall of Male-Identification being accepted into our BF community (as equal shared space) and on some levels even being seen as a threat by some members. Not that I'm saying in any way this is what you meant, or what your feelings are behind your statment, Toughy. But when I read your statement this is how it makes me feel.

I disagree that the BF community is first a Female space. I believe it is equally shared between all of us regardless of Male or Female Identification or Gender Fluid. I also believe that no one can say that the BF community started that way unless the very first BF relationship is documented somewhere and it is proven that the Butch was Female-Identified. The Butch very well could have been Male-Identified or Gender Fluid.

I do believe as always we all need to be respectful of each other no matter how anyone identifies and remember we are all in this together as equals in an equal space.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

OK that's cool. No need to rehash. I will try to re-watch the video tomorrow, see if I have any thoughts on it. I know it is long.

To be continued...

Have a good night.

I want to honor what this thread is supposed to be about.....the stuff we as butch understand about each other.....what is our common stuff..........

How about we take this hard stuff over to the Tough Guise thread? It seems to me that's where it really belongs.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I want to honor what this thread is supposed to be about.....the stuff we as butch understand about each other.....what is our common stuff..........

How about we take this hard stuff over to the Tough Guise thread? It seems to me that's where it really belongs.

Yep agreed. I will try to see if I have any thoughts on the video tomorrow. Will post over there if anyone is interested in further participating in that discussion. I would love to hear other's thoughts. I know it is very powerful and almost hard to put things into words.

[Cyclopea]

I understood "only another butch would understand" to mean a thread for support and bonding among butches regarding the issues and commonalities that only another butch could provide.
I did not understand it to mean "something ALL butches can understand or relate to". There is vast diversity among peeps who are butch. Age, class, education, gender, ethnicity, appearance, geography, life experience, etc. etc. I can't imagine a topic or concern that EVERY butch can understand or relate to. And why is that a bad thing?
I think a centralized thread for bonding and support that includes all types of butches does not dilute the thread's potential as a place to bond.

Someone earlier in the thread posted something about the pain of hearing emasculating things from a woman because she's pissed, and he sought support from other male-identified butches for that experience. Even though I am a butch woman, I enjoy reading and sharing the experiences of other types of butches, especially those seeking support, even if I DON'T understand them from my personal perspective. I can still empathize, and isn't that what butch-or any- bonding is all about?

One of the things that I get support around, and that only another butch would understand, is the experience of being a walking talking poster-child for "lesbianism" or "gay woman" among the general populace, 24/7, 365. And how that effects and impacts one's daily life, living - whether desiring to or not- as an ambassador of "gayness" among the public at large.
Now, I know full well this is something many butches go through. But NOT ALL, since butches are extremely diverse. I don't think that a topic set forth for butch bonding and support needs to be something universal among every butch that exists. We can all appreciate and learn from each other that way, and no one should be afraid to reach out for support and understanding out of fear that every single butch on the planet might not understand. And we should not hesitate to seek support for specifically butch concerns that might also be concerns of allies or those who do not id as butch. For example, hetero women who present visually as "butch", and others might also relate to the "gay billboard" experience I described above. Overlapping experiences should not prevent me seeking specific butch support as I see fit.

So I saw this thread as a positive place. If we need to start butch bonding threads specific to our particular type of butch, maybe that makes sense too, but I see nothing wrong with a centralized butch bonding thread.

And the "one star" rating makes me sad...

All the stuff around male privilege is very interesting but I'm not sure I see where peeps are asking for bonding and support around that? I don't at all discount that topic but I would like to see this thread get back to bonding and support for the things that only another butch can understand. Not criticizing! Just my preference and interpretation as to what this thread is intended to be...

It seems like many posts in this thread are specifically addressing the ways in which butches do NOT feel supported and understood by each other, and as valid as that conversation is it seems anathema to a thread created for butches to support and bond with each other. Good conversation, wrong thread.

My intentions for posting this are positive, and if someone wants to pick out a piece of something I said and point out how I could have stated it more clearly, that is fine. However if someone tries to turn my post into something ugly and negative and hateful- I will not respond.

Thank you for listening and thanks to all the butches who have posted, and allies.

[Cyclopea]

Bulldog and Toughy- you posted as I was composing mine and stated about getting back to the bonding- If I had seen your posts it would have saved me a lot of typing! Thanks for understanding.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Toughy

It may not be a popular idea, but I do believe that butch/femme space is first a female space. It started that way.

Originally Posted by Blue_Vegan_Daddy-O

Toughy, I didn't see where you expanded on this statement anywhere and I know in some respects this has been addressed by others, but this bothers me. If this is an example of how others feel, it may explain to me why there seems to be this ongoing bucking up against this wall of Male-Identification being accepted into our BF community (as equal shared space) and on some levels even being seen as a threat by some members. Not that I'm saying in any way this is what you meant, or what your feelings are behind your statment, Toughy. But when I read your statement this is how it makes me feel.

I disagree that the BF community is first a Female space. I believe it is equally shared between all of us regardless of Male or Female Identification or Gender Fluid. I also believe that no one can say that the BF community started that way unless the very first BF relationship is documented somewhere and it is proven that the Butch was Female-Identified. The Butch very well could have been Male-Identified or Gender Fluid.

I do believe as always we all need to be respectful of each other no matter how anyone identifies and remember we are all in this together as equals in an equal space.

The idea of 'first a female space' comes from about 37 years ago when I first went in a gay bar in Amarillo Tx. What I really meant was ........at the time butch was woman..........I was trying to find the words in today's meaning.

It is that historical personal perspective that drives my belief that butch is first (started out as) a female/women space. The language was about 'women's space'. Whether anyone liked it or not or even thought about it, then, butch was woman. If you had a clit and a vagina, you were a woman. It was simple for the large majority of us.

Do I believe that to be true today? No....not at all. Today the butch (and femme) conversation is about concepts that I never heard of or imagined when I was 20. If you had said 'gender identity' and 'at 57 i claim 3 genders' to me at 20, I truly would have written you (and me) off as a whacko nut job that needed to be institutionalized. (And..<grin> ... I was also a Republican) It truly is a brave new world.

My view of the world today is not what it was almost 40 years ago. My statement was simply a statement of the historical perspective of butch that I experienced in real time almost 40 years ago. Something I think should be honored. Honoring that history does not mean I do not honor what butch means today.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Toughy

The idea of 'first a female space' comes from about 37 years ago when I first went in a gay bar in Amarillo Tx. What I really meant was ........at the time butch was woman..........I was trying to find the words in today's meaning.

It is that historical personal perspective that drives my belief that butch is first (started out as) a female/women space. The language was about 'women's space'. Whether anyone liked it or not or even thought about it, then, butch was woman. If you had a clit and a vagina, you were a woman. It was simple for the large majority of us.

Do I believe that to be true today? No....not at all. Today the butch (and femme) conversation is about concepts that I never heard of or imagined when I was 20. If you had said 'gender identity' and 'at 57 i claim 3 genders' to me at 20, I truly would have written you (and me) off as a whacko nut job that needed to be institutionalized. (And..<grin> ... I was also a Republican) It truly is a brave new world.

My view of the world today is not what it was almost 40 years ago. My statement was simply a statement of the historical perspective of butch that I experienced in real time almost 40 years ago. Something I think should be honored. Honoring that history does not mean I do not honor what butch means today.

Thanks for this clarification, Toughy. I appreciate this post....

[atomiczombie]

I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned. And I am guilty of reverting to male pronouns and saying "bro" to butches without checking out their pronoun preference first. I do try to be mindful but I slip up sometimes and I am sorry. I never intend disrespect, but I understand that is what is sometimes the outcome. Please call me on it folks, cause it greatly pains me to be referred to with female pronouns, so I know how icky that feels. to all the female ID'd butches.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned.

Ditto here.

And as such, pronouns are an issue for me because I havent started my transition. Female pronouns make me cringe...it's just how I am. but I know i have to live with it. What's worse is how many people in the queer community don't get it and don't repect my ID. You would think that others in this community would view me with openness and understanding.

Not true.

The ones who have been most receptive and understanding have been bisexual women who wanted to go out with me and straight women I've met. (I won't date, of course, because I don't want to date anyone.) But I was amazed at how "natural" references and understanding came to bisexual and straight women I've met. It's a far cry from the gay men who didn't want me at their social gathering because their families would be there and the lesbian woman who told me I made her uncomfortable.

Yanno, i'm just tired of all of it. I can only do what pleases me. And maybe day I can be loved for what/who i am.

Anyway, just a comment about my experiences since i haven't dropped in the last several pages. Thanks for reading.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I am a male-identified transguy, not yet transitioned. And I am guilty of reverting to male pronouns and saying "bro" to butches without checking out their pronoun preference first. I do try to be mindful but I slip up sometimes and I am sorry. I never intend disrespect, but I understand that is what is sometimes the outcome. Please call me on it folks, cause it greatly pains me to be referred to with female pronouns, so I know how icky that feels. to all the female ID'd butches.

Drew...........

you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........

and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......

life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........

speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........

[PapaC]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Drew...........

you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........

and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......

life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........

speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........

*grabbing your squishy ass*.... I miss you, my little sissy-boi.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Drew...........

you will always have my respect......I will never forget you correcting yourself when you called me bro......it was outside the Eagle............You are the first and only in my real time community that has actually tried to be aware of my preference and gender id as a female/woman who prefers female pronouns. thank you..........

and you can always call me bro..............I do think of us as bro.......

life is not simple...............drew can call me bro with no offense............yet another could call me bro and i would lose my frigging mind in protest of blah blah blah...........

speaking and acting from your heart..........never be ashamed......and always stand by acting from your heart.........

Thanks Sis. (hehe). I do respect you a great deal Tough, and you are someone I look up to in the community. I see how unapologetic you are about who you are and your rightful place in this world. It is a good role model for me. I know you have lived though much tougher times when it was more dangerous to be queer, and seeing you stand tall and proud is awesome.

[Unndunn]

Originally Posted by Daywalker

I believe in the theory that the hard stuff must be brought forth in order to
gain a better perspective n what have you. I read a lot. I may not jump
in to some conversations, because frankly some of them get over wrought
with bullshit back n forths that are more personal; than those that are
actually addressing the main Topic at hand. I am also one who tends
to care about the words that I use, and how all folks might interpret them.
And I never post my words as if I am right and everyone else who doesn't
agree just 'doesn't get it...so they are wrong'. I will not speak from a clouded
point of frustration, because when I read folks who do just that thing...I cannot
get past their disposition far enough to decipher what it is they are really
trying to say. Heated discussions are great, so long as the Topic does not
get clouded over in a circus of demeanor's that resemble hecklers with no
meaning, only destructive motives and divisiveness. There really is a way
to discuss the Hard Stuff without being fucked up to one side of the
conversationalists, and only defending those who agree with me.

To Me

Addressing anything Butch Femme related, includes the Voices of Past,
Present AND Future Butches of our Community. No one should feel left
out of a conversation (or the target of) over such things as pronouns,
which is just a preference as to how we have chosen to be addressed
within the Community. And yes, our commonalities are indeed more
significant than our differences.

I put the part that resonated the most to me in blue. To me there's a huge difference between doing the hard work and attacking others to make your own voice heard. I find myself on the sidelines more and more because I see some of the same people who claim to be "doing the work" and "having the difficult conversations" being the ones who make the conversations more difficult than they need to be. I can't respect anyone who doesn't care about all of us as individuals. I can't respect someone who thinks it's okay to attack and rip people apart just because they don't agree. I won't respect anyone who acts as if their "message" is more important than civility and community. I'm just getting too old and too tired to want to be around anyone that enjoys the act of arguing more than the resolution of differences and miscommunications.