"Stud" versus "Butch"

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Dakarti [B

Back on topic...as with Mass., it's not a term I'm familiar with using in the 'gay' 'community' over here in UK. Sadly, it reminds me of a bio bloke who's a bit too full of himself and reckons he's a shit hot lover. I will be very happy to replace this image with a more positive one.[/B]

Originally Posted by Massive

For me personally, stud just isn't a term I'm familiar with or have ever heard being used here in the UK, so thank you to the OP for broaching the subject, I'm enjoying seeing this being discussed, as far as I'm concerned it's better to ask a question than to make assumptions or remain ignorant.

Actually 'Stud' is used in the UK, but perhaps not as widely as in the US. In the UK 'Stud' is also an ID that is similar to (but not synonymous with) 'Butch' in that it is used mainly by people who fall masculine of centre on the gender identity spectrum and it is primarily used by people of colour (as far as my experience goes).

This film was featured in the LGBT - BFI London film festival this past year.

[*Anya*]

I also encourage you to watch a documentary that is a few years old called The Aggressives.

It followed a group of multi-identified POC in New York City over a period of years.

It was an education for me for me about a part of our culture that I knew nothing about.

Many of those featured, did identify as Studs (also trans, butch, lesbian).

I watched it on Hulu but believe it is also Netflix streaming.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I also encourage you to watch a documentary that is a few years old called The Aggressives.

It followed a group of multi-identified POC in New York City over a period of years.

It was an education for me for me about a part of our culture that I knew nothing about.

Many of those featured, did identify as Studs (also trans, butch, lesbian).

I watched it on Hulu but believe it is also Netflix streaming.

I saw it at the Film Forum on 13th Street in the West Village, back when it came out.

I was struck by how much the women were struggling economically, and how they talked about getting their GED.

Later I started a free GED class at the LGBT center in NYC and I think there are studies that back up what I saw, that people who are outliers on the culturally defined, gender-expression scale are more likely to struggle with education and poverty.

Also, they are more likely to go into careers that are less typical for their sex, which shows their perseverance and resourcefulness.

At some point in the late nineties, young studs and aggressors and other lesbian and butch/femme women of color began frequenting Henrietta Hudson's, a lesbian bar in the West Village, and its demographic changed dramatically.

I heard a white lesbian complain about the change and express her racist dismay (I got into a huge argument with her...lets just say I didn't fit in well with that particular girlfriend and her crowd, kinda funny as I look back), but to me when I walked past the long line out front of the bar, all I saw were incredibly young, it seemed, butches, studs, and aggressors in little groups dressed for a night out in the clubs, probably hoping to impress girls, like the kids in my classes at that time.

It's not my culture but I am surrounded by many cultures here in NY and somehow in all morphs into something that does feel like my culture, because when I get into a less diverse cultural setting I feel uneasy, like I will be "found out" and not welcome there, though I pass for fitting in at first, which yes, I know, is a privilege I can work to my advantage economically and career wise—and my GED students including the studs didn't have that option.

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Actually 'Stud' is used in the UK, but perhaps not as widely as in the US. In the UK 'Stud' is also an ID that is similar to (but not synonymous with) 'Butch' in that it is used mainly by people who fall masculine of centre on the gender identity spectrum and it is primarily used by people of colour (as far as my experience goes).

This film was featured in the LGBT - BFI London film festival this past year.

Just out of interest, where did you hear it in the UK and did you hear it often?

As I said above, I've never heard it in UK except as an almost perjorative for a big headed cis-guy/butch/genderqueer/trans-guy (apologies if my use of nomenclature is not considered 'standard'.). As a person who ids at genderqueer or that (clunky) phrase, masculine of centre I've never heard it used about myself or anyone like me regardless of colour or culture anywhere in the country...but then I'm a northerner and don't get to the Big cosmopolitan Smoke of London anymore; nor have I heard it in Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow or Newcastle either I'm not saying it's never used just that it must be a pretty exclusive minority. Maybe it's a south of Watford Gap thang.



ETA Yup, I have to own my clueless white privilege (never heard of such a thing until I joined up here; That's why I read some of the more educative threads here.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Daktari

Just out of interest, where did you hear it in the UK and did you hear it often?

As I said above, I've never heard it in UK except as an almost perjorative for a big headed cis-guy/butch/genderqueer/trans-guy (apologies if my use of nomenclature is not considered 'standard'.). As a person who ids at genderqueer or that (clunky) phrase, masculine of centre I've never heard it used about myself or anyone like me regardless of colour or culture anywhere in the country...but then I'm a northerner and don't get to the Big cosmopolitan Smoke of London anymore; nor have I heard it in Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow or Newcastle either I'm not saying it's never used just that it must be a pretty exclusive minority. Maybe it's a south of Watford Gap thang.

I knew self-identified Studs and Aggressives when I lived and worked in east and sarf London. Which is not to say there aren't self-identified S/As all over the UK - because I am sure there are. The areas of London I lived, worked and socialized were very culturally diverse and quite queer, and that is probably why it is more familiar to me. As a sweeping generalization, I would say, the majority of people who ID'd as Stud or Aggressive were POC, young-ish (40 and under) & inner-city/urban oriented queers.

But as to your supposition that it is only used by an exclusive minority...hmmmm...I think I would extend that thought and say that I found that gender-related IDs were used by a minority of queers that I knew in the UK, when I lived there. (8years ago now and lots has changed for sure, especially in relation to genderqueer identities.)

I didn't know a lot of queers who claimed Butch/Femme IDs either. There seemed to be an eschewing of "labels" regardless of individuals' gender presentation or desires/personal attractions. I knew a lot of queers who fell soundly to the masculine or feminine side of the gender spectrum but not a whole lot who embraced Butch (as a noun) or Femme (as a noun) IDs.

Perhaps that is why Stud/Aggressive seems a small sub-group to you?

I think there in lies another interesting cultural difference between the US and the UK.

Or perhaps that is where the queer culture in US is moving too, but I'm have a myopic view because of my ID and the places I socialize/find community.

It is my experience in the gay/queer/trans/b/f and kink cultures over here for many, many years (25+yrs) I have never heard anyone label themselves as you suggest. I do understand that some folks where you lived used it which is why I say it's a small minority because it cannot be extrapolated to include the rest of the country. I know we appear a small country to you lot but there is a lot more regional variation than you probably realise, even within the different countries that make up the UK.

However, It is also my long time experience that self empowering labels are anathema to many within the wider 'gay' 'community' but not so much in the pan sexual kink 'community'. It is this that led me on my own path to individual gender expression.

Maybe it's just me turning into a reet old fart and not knowing the yoof lingo anymore.

...and on that non-bombshell, I'll back away, leave you to the discussion and lurk a little to learn. Just please don't speak for the majority of us outside urban inner city London please.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Daktari

...and on that non-bombshell, I'll back away, leave you to the discussion and lurk a little to learn. Just please don't speak for the majority of us outside urban inner city London please.

I wasn't really thinking (and didn't mean to imply) that there is a proliferation of self-ID'd Studs and Aggressives all over Blighty. But I would guess you'd find people who ID like that in Manchester and Glasgow, maybe Brighton, possibly Liverpool... essentially, as you note, in the heavily urban areas where there are larger queer communities and thus more diversity within those communities.

Originally Posted by Sparkle

I wasn't really thinking (and didn't mean to imply) that there is a proliferation of self-ID'd Studs and Aggressives all over Blighty. But I would guess you'd find people who ID like that in Manchester and Glasgow, maybe Brighton, possibly Liverpool... essentially, as you note, in the heavily urban areas where there are larger queer communities and thus more diversity within those communities.

Having spent time in some heavily urban areas, particularly Edinburgh, Manchester, Leeds, N'castle and Brum, but not so much Liverpool or Brighton, I can still assure you I've never heard it there. Maybe I just don't come across those folks on my queer troubadour travels. I really hope one day I do.

I bet ya our very own metrosexual, Ciaran, has heard the term used though; like I say, I'm just a provincial 'hick', albeit a rather eccentric one


...and now I really am gonna try to lurk-n-learn

[Samurai Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Daktari

However, It is also my long time experience that self empowering labels are anathema to many within the wider 'gay' 'community' but not so much in the pan sexual kink 'community'. It is this that led me on my own path to individual gender expression.

I don't quite understand this part. Why would the gay community want to avoid self empowering labels? Aren't we in the business of self-empowering?

[always2late]

Growing up in a multi-cultural area of Brooklyn, I heard the term "papi" used, but it was primarily used in a straight setting. I'd also heard the term "stud"...again primarily in straight discourse. I never heard the terms "stud" "aggressive" or "papi" used in the LGBT context until I joined the LGBT club at my college. From my own experience, I found this to be more an issue of age than of diversity. I live, and work, in a very diverse community, however, it wasn't until I spent time with the 20-something age group that I heard the terms used frequently. Now...I'm not saying that the terms weren't, or haven't, been used in a cultural context for many years..just that I'd never heard them. I will say that, when I joined the club at my college, it made my heart sing to hear young butches, studs, aggressives, and every other self-identifier used with such freedom and pride! It has, and still does, make my heart leap a bit when I see the younger generation...those coming after me...embrace who they are with whatever ID they choose so freely and with such an unabashed sense of self. I admire them, I cheer for them, I support them...and I love them all.

Originally Posted by Samurai Wanderer

I don't quite understand this part. Why would the gay community want to avoid self empowering labels? Aren't we in the business of self-empowering?

Yes 'we' are.
However I find that in the wider 'gay community' I encounter here in UK, including many of my 'gay' friends, folks don't use the labels we embrace here in the b/f world. Mostly I find the attitude to be "I'm just me, I don't need labels". I have observed that those who embrace labels are those who don't 'fit', into the wider gay 'community'.

It is my experience that most folks I come into contact with, homo or hetero, don't understand the need for self empowering, self identifying labels...until a patient person explains the need.

[Samurai Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Daktari

Yes 'we' are.
However I find that in the wider 'gay community' I encounter here in UK, including many of my 'gay' friends, folks don't use the labels we embrace here in the b/f world. Mostly I find the attitude to be "I'm just me, I don't need labels". I have observed that those who embrace labels are those who don't 'fit', into the wider gay 'community'.

It is my experience that most folks I come into contact with, homo or hetero, don't understand the need for self empowering, self identifying labels...until a patient person explains the need.

It's been overwhelming to sift through and keep up with the labels, I had given up. After finding this community, it feels that for once, there are labels that I might be able to identify with. Thank you for explaining, I've never thought of labels as self-empowering, yet I'm beginning to feel it even if I can't explain why.

[Massive]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Actually 'Stud' is used in the UK, but perhaps not as widely as in the US. In the UK 'Stud' is also an ID that is similar to (but not synonymous with) 'Butch' in that it is used mainly by people who fall masculine of centre on the gender identity spectrum and it is primarily used by people of colour (as far as my experience goes).

This film was featured in the LGBT - BFI London film festival this past year.

Be that as it may, I have never heard the term used in the North of England, nor in Southern Scotland and I've been living in this area for my entire life ... And I've been an active member of my local gay scene the entire time. Remember, there are other places than London over here! Some of which have just as thriving a scene as there.

[Parker]

I heard the terms several years ago when watching a documentary.
I think it might be the same doc that Anya and Island Scout are talking about, which is, I think, this one:

The Aggressives 1/6 (LGBT Documentary)

"A documentary look at women who prefer to dress and act as men
and who participate in NYC's predominantly African-American lesbian drag balls. (2005)"




If you go to view the youtube video at youtube, you can catch the other 5 parts
- I just checked both Amazon and Netflix and it is not available to stream on either.

[Martina]

God, we sound white. I guess because, for the most part, we are. I guess my white privilege allows me to forget that sometimes.

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by Martina

God, we sound white. I guess because, for the most part, we are. I guess my white privilege allows me to forget that sometimes.

I thought the same thing, but wasn't sure if it was just
my own perspective reading it that way, so thanks for out-louding it.

Folks who feel the need to buck any Identity due to their perspective
having already ruled it a minority term...should take a moment to marinate on why.

[txdoc]

Another Perspective...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by txdoc

Another Perspective...

You're kidding me right?

What perspective is this?

[MissItalianDiva]

Originally Posted by txdoc

Another Perspective...

I realize everyone has different perspectives but this whole video bothers me on so many different levels. I don't even know where to start so I think I will just end with WTF

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Massive

Be that as it may, I have never heard the term used in the North of England, nor in Southern Scotland and I've been living in this area for my entire life ... And I've been an active member of my local gay scene the entire time. Remember, there are other places than London over here! Some of which have just as thriving a scene as there.

Hi Massive,

I know there is much more to Great Britain than London, I promise. I had the privilege to experience some of it (though not nearly enough). I lived there for 7 years, I consider myself blessed to have made my home there for a while. There are many really wonderful cities and areas outside of London; and yes, other thriving, vibrant queer scenes beyond London. I agree!

I only mentioned London because Daktari's asked me 'where' my experience of Stud culture was in the UK. I wasn't comparing London to any other city or region in the UK, or placing a value on London's queer scene versus any other.

I don't think there is anything wrong with you or Daktari not having met anyone who IDs as a stud. And I wasn't trying to demean your experience in, or contribution to, your queer communities.

I think it is just an issue of racial diversity. When I lived and socialized in a very racially diverse queer community I knew people who ID'd as Stud/Aggressive. I currently live in a very homogenic community and I don't know anyone who ID's as a Stud here.

Lucky for us we have BFP, we can share our experiences and trade ideas and learn more about one another.




Sorry for the tangent, OP.