"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Apocalipstic]

I totally agree that Femme is out of style. I just wonder when it ever was?

[SuperFemme]

The author of the article has some interesting points, but she has one huge point she is missing; what a Femme IS.

[Selenay]

It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded.

It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently."


Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f.

I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on, and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going.

Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example.

What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Selenay

It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded.

It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently."


Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f.

I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going.

Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example.

What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone.

Sel, I am sorry you feel railroaded.

I went digging around the interwebz for more info and indeed you are speaking a valid point. I thank you for that.

Again, you are correct about the median age on most of the b/f sites I have been too. I wish we had MORE young people and to do so means listening to you all with respect. I respect you immensely.

Thank you a million times for coming back and posting when it is uncomfortable.

[Medusa]

Mad love!

Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture?

Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them?

Im 33 myself. When I first came out I remember having a "culture shock" within the context of B/F because I had been exposed to Lesbians who totally dismissed what they viewed as rigid adherence to gender conformity and hegemonic idealism...and here I was suddenly immersed and surrounded with folks who embraced the dynamic.
I will also admit to feeling a little turned off at first with what I felt like was a lot of posturing to be the "most" Femme or the "most" Butch. A distinct hierarchy, if you will.

I also fully recognize that my "Femme" definitely isnt the same as it was 13 years ago. She is looking a lot less like Betty Crocker and a lot more like a cross between the Bride of Chuckie and my (favorite) archetype "Medusa" (hence the screen name).

Didnt mean to hijack here and turn it inward, but Selly has me thinking. (thats never a bad thing)

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Mad love!

Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture?

Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them?

Im 33 myself. When I first came out I remember having a "culture shock" within the context of B/F because I had been exposed to Lesbians who totally dismissed what they viewed as rigid adherence to gender conformity and hegemonic idealism...and here I was suddenly immersed and surrounded with folks who embraced the dynamic.
I will also admit to feeling a little turned off at first with what I felt like was a lot of posturing to be the "most" Femme or the "most" Butch. A distinct hierarchy, if you will.

I also fully recognize that my "Femme" definitely isnt the same as it was 13 years ago. She is looking a lot less like Betty Crocker and a lot more like a cross between the Bride of Chuckie and my (favorite) archetype "Medusa" (hence the screen name).

Didnt mean to hijack here and turn it inward, but Selly has me thinking. (thats never a bad thing)

Great post!

Cynthia says when I am mad I am Chuckie.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

Originally Posted by PapaC

The only 'real time' community off the internet where there is an abundance of butches and femmes that I've ever participated in is in San Francisco. Who do we have to thank for that? Community organizers. (nodding in Toughy's direction)... I know there's a lot happening in NY as well. How? oh yeah... *community organizers*

But apart from pockets of online communities and some real time community organizers in large urban areas, is "Butch" and "Femme" known or used terms? Frankly folks, I don't think I've *ever* lived (and lived as queer) where Butch and Femme were actually "popular" terms.

They are however, I believe: timeless

Originally Posted by Medusa

Mad love!

Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture?

Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them?

Didnt mean to hijack here and turn it inward, but Selly has me thinking. (thats never a bad thing)

I think we are all kind of talking about the same thing... and I really dig the discussion (do people still say "dig"? :>). I also love hearing from the younger folks (ok sometimes that feels weird to say because I still think of myself as young...) yes, Selly...you, please talk more!!! I am learning still, everyday, and while I feel somewhat sad that maybe the terms butch and femme are less used and maybe even considered outdated by some, I am encouraged by the progression we have made in terms of acceptance in the queer culture to include so much fluidity.

[BullDog]

I am no expert on how the younger generation are iding, but I see a lot of truth in what ToppDyke says. Genderqueer seems to dominate a lot of online stuff that I see, and certainly it's a term that a lot of people resonate with- which is totally cool. But there are whole other worlds out there, whole other communities out there-both online and real time- Stud and Butch identities- as an example- that are quite a bit removed from what dominates the airwaves on the major Butch Femme sites.

Just this morning I was doing some searches on Studs, because the voices of some of the younger Studs that I read and listen to in videos really do resonate with me even though I am a 47 year old white butch. There are some really great voices out there- very savvy, very aware, who incorporate masculinity within a woman-centric, community based framework- at least that is my take on it. I am loving what I am finding. Not seeing much of it at butch femme sites.

[Bootboi]

Originally Posted by Selenay

It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded.

It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently."


Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f.

I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on, and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going.

Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example.

What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone.

*chuckles* I'm glad we are not having the age discussion. Bright and Beautiful is my shining star!




Sincerely,

Her old as dirt Butch

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I'm really bothered that Selenay is not feeling us being receptive.
I HEAR her saying b/f will never be dead, that it is simply evolving.

Perhaps that is the crux of the way we are answering?

Butch and Femme are genders to many of us. Identities we've carved out. To hear they are dead gives a mass gut reaction of NO WAY!

Now that I am meandering along thinking about this I realize that is how I have felt during this conversation. In my head I experienced a little fear along the lines of "Please don't erase us". In answering along the lines of that thinking am I erasing a younger generation? I fear I may be, but I don't want to do that.

I want to embrace the evolution of Queer however that may look. That doesn't mean my identity is in jeopardy.

That's really the point of my posting at all; I don't care if I'm dismissed, if you think I'm irrelevant and my post is, as well. Really, you're entitled to your opinions (even if they're wrong) just like I am.

My big issue is that there are so few other young people here. Why do we think that is? Is it, perhaps, because they were treated the same way I have? I've been on butch-femme websites since I was sixteen, so I've kind of grown up with a tough skin. What about people who haven't? What about people who don't know that when people are percieved as being mean, they aren't?

Nothing ever dies. Let's go back to the dead harpsichord--that became the piano. Latin became French and Spanish and Italian. Their evolution is what keeps them alive--why do we still know what Latin is while most people have never heard of Yana or Jassic? Latin became something new.

Originally Posted by June

Sidenote to Selly: I don't care how you identify, I love your voice, it energizes me and makes me think. It's Monday, come over here and be a Poodle with me. On alternate days, I'm a DolphinLion.

I'll be a poodle with you only if you'll be bunnicula with me every wednesday.

Originally Posted by Medusa

Mad love!

Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture?

Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them?

I also fully recognize that my "Femme" definitely isnt the same as it was 13 years ago. She is looking a lot less like Betty Crocker and a lot more like a cross between the Bride of Chuckie and my (favorite) archetype "Medusa" (hence the screen name).

Do you think that your own evolution of New Femme from Old Femme is a demarcation of a shift in Butch/Femme? I can't speak as to whether or not it's a change in the terminology or the culture, but my opinion is that the gay culture is shifting away from strict guidelines of what gender is, away from the binary of masculine and feminine, and that's affecting butch/femme.

Originally Posted by Boots13

but wondering what the younger generation thinks about us "oldsters" .

You're all old and mean but some of you can cook really well so we'll keep you around til we get your recipes but after that we're actually going to get rid of you.

[ToppDyke]

There happen to be many younger butches and femmes who id as butches and femmes so how this concept that the younger generation no longer uses these terms and we need to embrace changing times and new terms with our old ids outdated in yester year is way off base.

Personally I think terms like stud have been around and should be embraced anyway as any given day I could be called either and I respond as I get the context of it is very similar I still id as butch 1st however cuz it's the term I most relate too and always will.

Anyhow in spite there being other terms that should have always been welcome as many others have been there is no need deem butch or femme old terms as the classics don't get old and there is modern young butches and femmes everywhere other then online there for reasons beyond being open to other terms that have been around forever now that have been deemed new when they are not.

I don't see young butches and femmes disappearing off the face of the planet nor do I see stud and other terms the new butch/femme but rather another side of butch/femme that has been around and will be around as long as butch/femme which is an attraction as timeless as boy meets girl and trust me it's not going anywhere as I see an even more open and growing generation of butches and femmes to follow.

[Boots13]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I totally agree that Femme is out of style. I just wonder when it ever was?

Hey Apoc ~
If I've never told you how much I like your screen name, every time I see
it (and I've seen it for years!) I chuckle.
Nothing like a little chaos with color !
Boots


Anyway...this statement kinda made me sad. Are we really that "antiquated',
becoming "invisible", or outdated? I wonder what the now generation thinks when
they see a Butch/Femme couple, out and about.


I remember terms like bull-dagger, lipstick lez, sporty dyke...and now Butch and Femme
are falling by the wayside. For some reason this conversation has awakened me.

I had no clue that while we've been arguing, debating, defining ourselves , that the
descriptors of Butch and Femme are falling by the wayside. It makes sense, everything evolves.


I'm really interested in this and wish more of the younger generation was on this thread to
share their experiences and thoughts.

[SuperFemme]

I'm really bothered that Selenay is not feeling us being receptive.
I HEAR her saying b/f will never be dead, that it is simply evolving.

Perhaps that is the crux of the way we are answering?

Butch and Femme are genders to many of us. Identities we've carved out. To hear they are dead gives a mass gut reaction of NO WAY!

Now that I am meandering along thinking about this I realize that is how I have felt during this conversation. In my head I experienced a little fear along the lines of "Please don't erase us". In answering along the lines of that thinking am I erasing a younger generation? I fear I may be, but I don't want to do that.

I want to embrace the evolution of Queer however that may look. That doesn't mean my identity is in jeopardy.

[Duchess]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I'm really bothered that Selenay is not feeling us being receptive.
I HEAR her saying b/f will never be dead, that it is simply evolving.

Perhaps that is the crux of the way we are answering?

Butch and Femme are genders to many of us. Identities we've carved out. To hear they are dead gives a mass gut reaction of NO WAY!

Now that I am meandering along thinking about this I realize that is how I have felt during this conversation. In my head I experienced a little fear along the lines of "Please don't erase us". In answering along the lines of that thinking am I erasing a younger generation? I fear I may be, but I don't want to do that.

I want to embrace the evolution of Queer however that may look. That doesn't mean my identity is in jeopardy.

I could not have said it better..

[Boots13]

Or more aptly the butch?

I just repped Selenay because I enjoyed her perspective, but also feel that her information was met with some degree of denial or hostility by a few others. And thats OK too.

I will tell you, for me, its a hard pill to swallow. I remember seeing old, old, old (probably at least in their fifties, shit, thats me...) bull dykes, daggers, walking around. Looking tired in their leather, sporting mullets, doing the whole flannel shirt thing. And while I appreciated their "breaking ground" for me, I didnt want to be that when I grew old. I wanted to fly my own flag-

And here I am, partnered with a femme, having worked hard through the years to maintain my identity and paying some heavy prices for being so identifiable. I sit here, thrilled to be me, knowing I am in my place, settled in my Butchness, and LOVING my Femme, but wondering what the younger generation thinks about us "oldsters" .

I dont feel defensive, just thoroughly interested in our..yes OUR younger generation and the direction they see themselves going.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Selenay

It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded.

It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently."


Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f.

I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on, and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going.

Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example.

What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone.

I apologize if I sounded like my posts are railroading you, I was commenting on the OP's post, not you.

I agree that my younger friends are mostly andro and call themselves queer rather than Butch or Femme...

Thank you for trying to keep us up to date!

Originally Posted by Boots13

Hey Apoc ~
If I've never told you how much I like your screen name, every time I see
it (and I've seen it for years!) I chuckle.
Nothing like a little chaos with color !
Boots


Anyway...this statement kinda made me sad. Are we really that "antiquated',
becoming "invisible", or outdated? I wonder what the now generation thinks when
they see a Butch/Femme couple, out and about.


I remember terms like bull-dagger, lipstick lez, sporty dyke...and now Butch and Femme
are falling by the wayside. For some reason this conversation has awakened me.

I had no clue that while we've been arguing, debating, defining ourselves , that the
descriptors of Butch and Femme are falling by the wayside. It makes sense, everything evolves.


I'm really interested in this and wish more of the younger generation was on this thread to
share their experiences and thoughts.

Thank you! My screen name cracks me up too.

When I came out back in my 20's, it was scandalous to be Femme and it seems to still be (I kind of like being scandalous so no prob for me). Yes, there have been times where it seemed really cool to be Butch...but that just may be because to me Butches have always been cool and fun to be around.

I also did not take this as a fighting subject. I am fine with however people want to ID as long as there is somewhere I can feel welcome being me. It has been my experience that andro Queers/Lesbians have looked down on girls like me. Giggled when walking in the bar. Talked about. Asked when I was going to grow up, etc.