Men with boobs.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Dylan

...
And I think we all know some folks who have decided who is and isn't 'butch enough' based on their sexual preferences, haircuts, 'swaggers', and a slew of other 'butch enough markers'


Dylan

yeah we do know those folks, probably the exact same folks.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

................
And I think we all know some folks who have decided who is and isn't 'butch enough' based on their sexual preferences, haircuts, 'swaggers', and a slew of other 'butch enough markers'


Dylan

Originally Posted by apretty

yeah we do know those folks, probably the exact same folks.

Golly gee whiz, yeah because if it's one thing we all know butch is all haircut, ball scratching and huge baggy jeans. It's all those people who think it's something inside called um.... ... masculinity (is that what its called?) that are completely nuts.

It's nice to know there are people in the world like that who see so clearly to set things straight. Maybe more people should judge people solely by their appearance, because yeah... that's how we can really tell the most about peoples heart and personalities. (and to dispel any confusion, yes I'm being sarcastic because it's just that stupid)

I give it that most butches DO have outer butch markers, but the difference is I wear "men's" clothing because I love them... and feminine clothing don't feel right me. But the clothing are not what makes me butch. I'm still butch in my birthday suit.

Personally as far as presentation goes, I decided for myself not that long ago that things like passing, attempts to have the world see you and address you as a male person... was not what being queer and being butch was about for me. I like the gender queered-ness of having both gender "markers", and being visible in that.

There's all kinds of butches, to each their own.

Blah,
Metro

[BullDog]

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

- It's emasculating to refer to butches using female pronouns if you id as male. Why? I can see where it would be insulting to not be referred to as you wish, but I thought all butches were butches and no one thought of us as less than. I thought females could be just as masculine as males. If so why would it be emasculating to refer to someone as she? Hmmmm

- Butches are looking for femmes to defer to them because we would like to be referred to (by all, not just femmes) by the right pronouns.

- We blame femmes more than butches for slipping up on prounons even though we have said over and over it's not about honest mistakes

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

Serious questions (personal grudges aside)

If the comments were made in the femme zone, where should butches talk about it if they don't want to make that thread 'all about them'?

Also, isn't it kinda the same thing if this thread's topics are being brought up in a thread where butches can't participate?


Serious Questions,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Serious questions (personal grudges aside)

If the comments were made in the femme zone, where should butches talk about it if they don't want to make that thread 'all about them'?

Also, isn't it kinda the same thing if this thread's topics are being brought up in a thread where butches can't participate?


Serious Questions,
Dylan

I'm confused. It seems that there is a flow between both femme Zone & Butch Zone threads. Thinking that BDSM specific and Trans Zones have threads in which everyone is invited to ask questions or get info. Right?

If someone comes into a thread that has a specific slant to it and is not that slant.... and just wants to mess with people, that's one thing. I certainly have taken in a lot with comments by femme's in this thread and MIB/Trans/IG folks. The thread did begin with a FIB slant, but, all of the differing thoughts from people no matter their ID has certainly been positive as far as I am concerned. Sure, some rough bumps, but, I think this has been a good conversation overall and respectful of some sensitive stuff. hell, i've benn smacked around on threads before. And sometimes deserved just that.

Then again, I am a peace-maker type... role since birth! Yikes, my Mom used to tell me I should be in work in some diplomatic capacity.... Mamma Mia!

Am I not understanding what is going on? Sorry, on pain meds.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

People are talking about this thread in other threads. I am respecting the space. I don't care what you think of me. I am being very direct. If you choose to see it as passive aggressive- what the fuck ever.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Serious questions (personal grudges aside)

If the comments were made in the femme zone, where should butches talk about it if they don't want to make that thread 'all about them'?

Also, isn't it kinda the same thing if this thread's topics are being brought up in a thread where butches can't participate?

So Butches aren't allowed to post in the Femme Zone at all? Ever? That's a rule I was unaware of, I'll have to re-read the TOS a little more thoroughly.

This is not the Dear* thread.

If the idea that it is "emasculating" to refer to a Male-ID Butch as she is sooooooo very perplexing and discussion worthy - then either discuss it where it was brought up, or start a new thread. Or take it to the red zone for crissakes. Bulldog's post didn't even work in with the flow of this thread, it was off-topic, derailing, and cranky.

Originally Posted by BullDog

People are talking about this thread in other threads. I am respecting the space. I don't care what you think of me. I am being very direct. If you choose to see it as passive aggressive- what the fuck ever.

Thank you for respecting my right to think you're passive aggressive. I'm gonna go ahead and continue to do that.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

So Butches aren't allowed to post in the Femme Zone at all? Ever? That's a rule I was unaware of, I'll have to re-read the TOS a little more thoroughly.

This is not the Dear* thread.

If the idea that it is "emasculating" to refer to a Male-ID Butch as she is sooooooo very perplexing and discussion worthy - then either discuss it where it was brought up, or start a new thread. Or take it to the red zone for crissakes. Bulldog's post didn't even work in with the flow of this thread, it was off-topic, derailing, and cranky.



Thank you for respecting my right to think you're passive aggressive. I'm gonna go ahead and continue to do that.

How come you are not cranky about the femmes discussing this thread in the femme thread?

Edit: calling a male butch she does deal with pronouns. That subject has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

So Butches aren't allowed to post in the Femme Zone at all? Ever? That's a rule I was unaware of, I'll have to re-read the TOS a little more thoroughly.

This is not the Dear* thread.

If the idea that it is "emasculating" to refer to a Male-ID Butch as she is sooooooo very perplexing and discussion worthy - then either discuss it where it was brought up, or start a new thread. Or take it to the red zone for crissakes. Bulldog's post didn't even work in with the flow of this thread, it was off-topic, derailing, and cranky.

Well, now, come on there, Potty. We all know that if a butch were to waltz into that thread and start making a comment about anything posted in there, SaidButch would definitely get an earful about how it's 'not all about them'. And if a guy were to go in there and bust up the conversation, he'd be accused of pissing his privilege on someone's leg.

I don't know about the Male ID/she commentary, but I DO know that some of the people who posted in here about pronouns are now in that thread posting about how they didn't like the answers they got when they posted over here in this thread. That looks pretty P/A, no? I mean, it looks pretty P/A to me.

So...what? It's ok to join into a conversation in one thread, and drag it into another thread if you don't like the answer in the first thread, but if someone brings it up in the original thread, they're the asshole?

I like ya' and all, but honestly, it sounds like a double bind to me. We allllllllllllllll know if a butch busts up a femme thread, there's going to be hell to pay.

The pronoun convo started over here. Pissing and moaning in another thread, cuz you didn't like the answer you got over here is P/A.


Keepin' It Real,
Dylan

[Jett]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Yanno what? Bringing shit from another thread over to THIS thread to gripe is super obnoxious.

If there is shit in your neighbors backyard, it needs to be cleaned up in your neighbors backyard. It does not need to be brought three counties over and -then- cleaned up.

Deal with your gripes where they're happening. I'm starting to get the impression that you're not happy unless you're unhappy. I'm also starting to view you as super passive aggressive, which is something I really dislike in a person.

Report me. Watch me care. Cuz this needed to be said.

If I'm not mistaken this thread is actually where all conversations being referred to in other threads originated. So why is it "super obnoxious" to draw attention here about what's being said there about said about this thread?

Is it "super obnoxious" to have brought shit from here over there? Is that passive aggressive? Have you called that out?

I mean truth, I personally don't really care that it was brought to another thread... I see that as cross posting.

But I do know that had Bull gone over there (or Dylan or me etc.) and complained (even about the "bring shit over there") it probably would have been portrayed (by a few not ALL) "the men folk" trying to control "the women folk"... which I find to be pretty insulting and painting butches and trans as stupid self-important knuckle dragging clods.

Not that I haven't seen that on occasion but I've seen that and more from all identities *shrugs*

One last thing, a probably the most important reason I'm even replying to your post. I met Bulldog for the first time last week at a party... and Bull actually kept cracking me up, one of the reasons? She was smiling and laughing so damn much... made me wanna laugh too.

Wasn't like one of those "not happy unless unhappy" people at all.

Done derailing, be great to see this convo get back on track.
Metro

[BullDog]

LOL, Metro. I think you can see why I would suck at Poker. Every time I got a good card in Apples to Apples, I could barely contain my excitement. Here's me (different game):

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

LOL, Metro. I think you can see why I would suck at Poker. Every time I got a good card in Apples to Apples, I could barely contain my excitement. Here's me (different game):

Oml... I'd definitely bring my earplugs... just in case you won...

[Nat]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

- It's emasculating to refer to butches using female pronouns if you id as male. Why? I can see where it would be insulting to not be referred to as you wish, but I thought all butches were butches and no one thought of us as less than. I thought females could be just as masculine as males. If so why would it be emasculating to refer to someone as she? Hmmmm

- Butches are looking for femmes to defer to them because we would like to be referred to (by all, not just femmes) by the right pronouns.

- We blame femmes more than butches for slipping up on prounons even though we have said over and over it's not about honest mistakes

Yesterday I was totally thinking I was misreading the request for respect as a request for deference, and I was thinking that the femme-blaming was something I was somehow misreading and I was all prepared to take all the blame for having thoughts like this. I had my self-flagellation set all ready.

But you know what? I do think it's an issue worth examining. I'm not the only femme (after all) who has felt that there is a difference in tone regarding attitudes toward femmes within these conversations and I think this post is an example of that.

The other femme who spoke to this in the other thread clearly stated that she agreed it's important to use the right pronouns. I also try my best to use the right pronouns unless there is no way of knowing (in which case I default to "she") or in the case that using the correct pronoun would closet (and therefore negate) me (which would only happen in relationships). The conversation of, "does it seem like femmes are being spoken of and about in a disrespectful way in conversations regarding butch pronouns, gender and identity?" is not the same conversation as, "do you think it's okay for butches to ask for respectful use of correct pronouns?"

It has been stated that femmes mess up more than butches - and I'm even willing to believe that (though I would soooo love a way to quantify this). I also think some of the complaints about femmes have been from a respectful place. I do not think this post is from a respectful place and I don't think it is the lone post in this thread of the same ilk.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Nat

Yesterday I was totally thinking I was misreading the request for respect as a request for deference, and I was thinking that the femme-blaming was something I was somehow misreading and I was all prepared to take all the blame for having thoughts like this. I had my self-flagellation set all ready.

But you know what? I do think it's an issue worth examining. I'm not the only femme (after all) who has felt that there is a difference in tone regarding attitudes toward femmes within these conversations and I think this post is an example of that.

The other femme who spoke to this in the other thread clearly stated that she agreed it's important to use the right pronouns. I also try my best to use the right pronouns unless there is no way of knowing (in which case I default to "she") or in the case that using the correct pronoun would closet (and therefore negate) me (which would only happen in relationships). The conversation of, "does it seem like femmes are being spoken of and about in a disrespectful way in conversations regarding butch pronouns, gender and identity?" is not the same conversation as, "do you think it's okay for butches to ask for respectful use of correct pronouns?"
It has been stated that femmes mess up more than butches - and I'm even willing to believe that (though I would soooo love a way to quantify this). I also think some of the complaints about femmes have been from a respectful place. I do not think this post is from a respectful place and I don't think it is the lone post in this thread of the same ilk.

No it isn't the same conversation at all (in red, above). I can't speak for anyone else in terms of the posts, but, there is something going on here. I know I came back to the thread and posted my last post due to my tummy knotting some about blame or perceived blame of femmes concerning use of pronouns. That is the reason I posted about the butch organization as an example of disrespect of identifications even though it was about hy and hym. To me, it's about pronouns, not which ones.

I have had other butches call me he, etc., outside of the site. I correct them, too. Sometimes I get weird looks as if I am demoting myself! I can't tell you how many times I have gotten, but, you are so masculine. WTF??? yes, and its feminine-masculinity that I am very proud of.

I have to say that as much as I love the B-F dynamic and have met some great people here (and on the old site), I often feel put down for being female-identified. But it goes beyond butch- I have found this community to just be one of the most anti-woman/female communities and sexist I have ever been acquainted with. I am speaking more to off-line situations as I have found online members that are not like this and obviously we gravitate toward each other- both butches & femmes. This hurts a lot because I am butch and I am not trans, either. I don't fit in the lesbian community really. I used to until I accepted and gained comfort with my butch identity far later than most). Although, I do know a group within tthe lesbian community I am around that is very accepting of my being a butch and preferring femmes overall (the person's character is what really counts with me in terms of romantic relationships and it seems like femmes come in every type!). this is within our queer dance community here in the Bay Area.

So, yes, this is a conversation to have, I think because you are not the only femme contributing here that has felt something is amiss. That is reason enough! Besides, I'll learn something, I always do and the fact of the matter is that I have not lived my entire life as a butch.... or a lesbian. And it seems like its a subject that can be covered by all butches and our Trans/IG members.

So, I say put the question(s) right on out there!

PS- I know Bully and I just don’t believe she meant those statements from a place of negativity- but she will have to answer for herself.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well judging by commentary in other threads I guess after talking ourselves blue in the face:

- It's emasculating to refer to butches using female pronouns if you id as male. Why? I can see where it would be insulting to not be referred to as you wish, but I thought all butches were butches and no one thought of us as less than. I thought females could be just as masculine as males. If so why would it be emasculating to refer to someone as she? Hmmmm

- Butches are looking for femmes to defer to them because we would like to be referred to (by all, not just femmes) by the right pronouns.

- We blame femmes more than butches for slipping up on prounons even though we have said over and over it's not about honest mistakes

I am the one that made this statement. Is it the word emasculating that bothers you? Does it (or did I) somehow imply that *she* is a bad word? Because that is not at ALL what I was saying.

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

Not because of the use of feminine pronouns Bulldog, but because of the complete and total disregard for that individual as a human being.

Please help me understand why me stating this made you feel like you'd talk yourself blue in the face for nothing? Because you know me better than that. I hope.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am the one that made this statement. Is it the word emasculating that bothers you? Does it (or did I) somehow imply that *she* is a bad word? Because that is not at ALL what I was saying.

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

Not because of the use of feminine pronouns Bulldog, but because of the complete and total disregard for that individual as a human being.

Please help me understand why me stating this made you feel like you'd talk yourself blue in the face for nothing? Because you know me better than that. I hope.

What do you mean by emasculating? I take that to mean taking away someone's masculinity. If females are masculine as well, why would it be emasculating to call someone by a female (not feminine in my opinion) pronoun? I certainly do think it's disrespectful.

[SuperFemme]

emasculate: weaken somebody or something: to deprive somebody or something of effectiveness, spirit, or force

eta: it can also mean to castrate, which is not the intent with which I used it.

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by BullDog

What do you mean by emasculating? I take that to mean taking away someone's masculinity. If females are masculine as well, why would it be emasculating to call someone by a female (not feminine in my opinion) pronoun? I certainly do think it's disrespectful.

Used as a verb, emasculate means to castrate or weaken or deprive of strength. Used as an adjective it means deprived of strength or vigor. Except in the one noun form the word can be used in connection with male/female or masculine/feminine. I believe this word is often misused to mean undermining masculinity in some way or form or making a person feel not masculine enough. I think this is an incorrect use of the word. I think in its present day use and connotations, the word emasculate is also misogynistic. Its similar to calling someone a "girl" or a "pansy" or a "fairy" or "prissy" or a "pussy" all words used to make men feel less than men (hence women, hence less than, inferior, or substandard). Once men and women are truly perceived as equals perhaps the whole need for gendered pronouns will disappear altogether and perhaps we can have just one pronoun for everyone. The gendering of language takes us back to the binaries and the binaries always place the feminized term at the bottom as somehow weaker and less than.

So for example, If I expressed my desire to be refered to with the male pronounn he, and someone insisted on using the female pronoun she, I would think of them as rude and disrespectful , but I would not feel emasculated. And vice versa. If I prefer the female pronoun she but someone insisted on using he, I would also not feel emasculated.

Rufus

[Medusa]

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.