The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[ravfem]

Years before i figured out i was gay, i was attracted to butches. i didn't discover the b-f community until i came online. There is no b-f community at all here in my SC. Once i started spending time online, i figured out i was femme. When i called myself that to a friend here, she blew it off and said, "whatever". Since that time, i've usually felt a little defensive of my femme-ness, and unsure of it at times too. i have never been what i perceive to be "high" femme...i don't wear make-up or skirts on a daily basis, my nails haven't been properly done in years, i am not a fashion-conscious girl at all.
i've had to make that clear to more than one butch who was more attracted to our "norm" of what a femme is.

i have noticed that in a chat room, many butches will pay more attention to the 'high' femmes, but it's usually in a overtly flirty way, which i'm fine missing out on, personally.

There is one particular femme online that, when i see her pictures, i automatically think, "yeah, i'll never be as femme as her". Then logic kicks in and i start thinking about how much time, energy and money she must expend to maintain that look.... i just don't have it in me!

i've had this internal struggle for many years, and not just with my femme-ness. i often say that my insides don't match my outsides.

Outside, i look like a 40-something generic, overweight, average soccer mom. i blend in to society-at-large well (except for my socks, which i think is as comfortable as i'll ever be outwardly expressing my individuality). Inside, i am a free-flowing hippie. i am thinner, younger and wear hippie-ish skirts. i am much less prudish, mainstream and much more "free".

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by ravfem

Years before i figured out i was gay, i was attracted to butches. i didn't discover the b-f community until i came online. There is no b-f community at all here in my SC. Once i started spending time online, i figured out i was femme. When i called myself that to a friend here, she blew it off and said, "whatever". Since that time, i've usually felt a little defensive of my femme-ness, and unsure of it at times too. i have never been what i perceive to be "high" femme...i don't wear make-up or skirts on a daily basis, my nails haven't been properly done in years, i am not a fashion-conscious girl at all.
i've had to make that clear to more than one butch who was more attracted to our "norm" of what a femme is.

i have noticed that in a chat room, many butches will pay more attention to the 'high' femmes, but it's usually in a overtly flirty way, which i'm fine missing out on, personally.

There is one particular femme online that, when i see her pictures, i automatically think, "yeah, i'll never be as femme as her". Then logic kicks in and i start thinking about how much time, energy and money she must expend to maintain that look.... i just don't have it in me!

i've had this internal struggle for many years, and not just with my femme-ness. i often say that my insides don't match my outsides.

Outside, i look like a 40-something generic, overweight, average soccer mom. i blend in to society-at-large well (except for my socks, which i think is as comfortable as i'll ever be outwardly expressing my individuality). Inside, i am a free-flowing hippie. i am thinner, younger and wear hippie-ish skirts. i am much less prudish, mainstream and much more "free".

(((((((((((rav)))))))))) hell girl I get where you are coming from, cause if I am home, I have no make up on, pajama pants, a-line t-shirt hair all nappy and pulled back.. I will go out like this too if I need to run and errand, flips flops and bad toe nails and all!!

Them are just props honey, make up, glitter, hair iron, blah! Femme is who we are inside, and our gender nothing to do with the smoke and mirrors!

Though I will tell you, with 5 kids if I had to drive a mini van ever, I would of screamed bloody murder, they weren't macho enough for me! ha!

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

(((((((((((rav)))))))))) hell girl I get where you are coming from, cause if I am home, I have no make up on, pajama pants, a-line t-shirt hair all nappy and pulled back.. I will go out like this too if I need to run and errand, flips flops and bad toe nails and all!!

Them are just props honey, make up, glitter, hair iron, blah! Femme is who we are inside, and our gender nothing to do with the smoke and mirrors!

Though I will tell you, with 5 kids if I had to drive a mini van ever, I would of screamed bloody murder, they weren't macho enough for me! ha!

OK, though I did unfortunately have a mini can briefly. Cough.

I also can most usually be found in PJ pants and a line shirt with hair pulled back unless I am at work.

[SuperFemme]

Minivans are for people that see aliens on the freeway.

[PinkieLee]

I find it refreshing that as time goes by, more femmes are becoming vocal about how they embrace femme. By speaking out, we can start breaking down those "stepford wives" sterotypes that so many people have stuck in their head of what femmes should be.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by ravfem

Years before i figured out i was gay, i was attracted to butches. i didn't discover the b-f community until i came online. There is no b-f community at all here in my SC. Once i started spending time online, i figured out i was femme. When i called myself that to a friend here, she blew it off and said, "whatever". Since that time, i've usually felt a little defensive of my femme-ness, and unsure of it at times too. i have never been what i perceive to be "high" femme...i don't wear make-up or skirts on a daily basis, my nails haven't been properly done in years, i am not a fashion-conscious girl at all.
i've had to make that clear to more than one butch who was more attracted to our "norm" of what a femme is.

i have noticed that in a chat room, many butches will pay more attention to the 'high' femmes, but it's usually in a overtly flirty way, which i'm fine missing out on, personally.

There is one particular femme online that, when i see her pictures, i automatically think, "yeah, i'll never be as femme as her". Then logic kicks in and i start thinking about how much time, energy and money she must expend to maintain that look.... i just don't have it in me!

i've had this internal struggle for many years, and not just with my femme-ness. i often say that my insides don't match my outsides.

Outside, i look like a 40-something generic, overweight, average soccer mom. i blend in to society-at-large well (except for my socks, which i think is as comfortable as i'll ever be outwardly expressing my individuality). Inside, i am a free-flowing hippie. i am thinner, younger and wear hippie-ish skirts. i am much less prudish, mainstream and much more "free".

Remember that many of those photos are taken at events where everyone is more dressed up than usual!

I remember someone saw an old avatar of me in a feather boa. It was taken when I had on a ton of makeup, false eyelashes and was dressed up for a Slut Night. She expected that I always dressed like that...she actually acted dissapointed when she met me and I did not have on make up and had on yoga pants and a t shirt.

The High/Low Femme freaks me out. I think it puts pressure on us to dress or act a certain way, when we should just be ourselves.

[PinkieLee]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Remember that many of those photos are taken at events where everyone is more dressed up than usual!

I remember someone saw an old avatar of me in a feather boa. It was taken when I had on a ton of makeup, false eyelashes and was dressed up for a Slut Night. She expected that I always dressed like that...she actually acted dissapointed when she met me and I did not have on make up and had on yoga pants and a t shirt.

The High/Low Femme freaks me out. I think it puts pressure on us to dress or act a certain way, when we should just be ourselves.

I can soooo relate to this, too!

When I walked into the lobby at the Dallas Bash (yep, my first official B-F function), I was wearing a tank top, shorts & flip flops and everyday makeup. I smiled and gave the nod to many people that I recognized (because I am a gallery whore). It wasn't until I went upstairs, changed clothes, and came down (in full hair extensions & makeup) that someone finally said, "hey, you're PinkieLee".

Yep, I know that is partly my fault, for only posting pictures of me looking a certain way. Over the years, I've started showing more of Tonya and less of PinkieLee. Some people like to see the many different femme faces that I wear... others only want to see the party girl side of me. See, yet again, another femme sterotype that I'm supposed to look like that 24/7.

I don't know a single femme that wears makeup every single day or shops at the grocery store in 4 inch heels.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by PinkieLee

I can soooo relate to this, too!

When I walked into the lobby at the Dallas Bash (yep, my first official B-F function), I was wearing a tank top, shorts & flip flops and everyday makeup. I smiled and gave the nod to many people that I recognized (because I am a gallery whore). It wasn't until I went upstairs, changed clothes, and came down (in full hair extensions & makeup) that someone finally said, "hey, you're PinkieLee".

Yep, I know that is partly my fault, for only posting pictures of me looking a certain way. Over the years, I've started showing more of Tonya and less of PinkieLee. Some people like to see the many different femme faces that I wear... others only want to see the party girl side of me. See, yet again, another femme sterotype that I'm supposed to look like that 24/7.

I don't know a single femme that wears makeup every single day or shops at the grocery store in 4 inch heels.

Grin! Me either. Not a single one.

It is fun to play dress up sometimes and yes I look better in makeup than without...which is probably why I tend to post party pictures. That and I don't like having my picture taken, so all I have are partyish photos.

PS and the boa leaves feathers all over the place.

[Tucker]

I grew up in a world that tried to force me to look and act a certain way. I was raised to be the "pretty little thing in her pink little dress".
Although, I did end up embracing that role, it has always been horrifying to me that when I meet straight men or other lesbians, I hear " if you wanted to date something that looked like a man, why don't you just date men?"
No one has the right to judge how I choose to fuck, or who I choose to fuck!
And, just because I am femme, in NO way means that I should be with someone that I don't want to be with!

I have been very hesitant to comment because I am not looking to upset anyone or cause anything. I am purely just speaking for myself here. This is how I feel.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Tucker

I grew up in a world that tried to force me to look and act a certain way. I was raised to be the "pretty little thing in her pink little dress".
Although, I did end up embracing that role, it has always been horrifying to me that when I meet straight men or other lesbians, I hear " if you wanted to date something that looked like a man, why don't you just date men?"
No one has the right to judge how I choose to fuck, or who I choose to fuck!
And, just because I am femme, in NO way means that I should be with someone that I don't want to be with!

I have been very hesitant to comment because I am not looking to upset anyone or cause anything. I am purely just speaking for myself here. This is how I feel.

I have heard the same words and was raised similarly.

I hate it when someone suggests that they have a better idea of whom I should date than I do!

Grrrrr.

People need to mind their own bees wax!

[imperfect_cupcake]

y'know, reading this thread has been a reminder about things.

I've had the massive privilidge of living in two very different kinds of community (many subtle different kinds but two majour ones). I recall the most extreme of one being in Toronto where the nick name of it being "bois town" didn't quite sink in till I attended a 300+ queer night at Buddies. "WOW! OMG! wall to wall butchez!! I am. so. lucky. Look at them all! gosh.... just so.... many... and.... ahhhhhh. um. there's ah. five femmes? ??? oh. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. oh CRAP > " and I did find out that unless you were an aogressive/assertive hard working/networking full-on femme top, as a femme you didn't have a chance. One friend actually cut all her hair off, dressed in dungarees and pretended to be a "faye" boi bottom - and got a lot of action. Till she fell in love and very slowly came out to her Daddy. very slowly explaining that just because she was femme, did not mean she was shallow, demanding, materialistic, high matinance emotionally, wanting to be served and pandered to while being submissive etc.

it confused me to tears because here were all these very strong, independant, mouthy femmes that organised so many community events and worked with the bisexual women's community to make sure it was integrated, many worked very hard with the gay men's leather community to get integrated sunday brunches going etc. Yet the common perception of a femme was "I don't want to pander to a spoilt demanding child." Which threw me. It you look at the programme of Mad Men and look at Don Draper's wife, Peggy, how immature, dependant, demanding and looks orientated and confused she is, that's the view of femmes in a relationship I was under the impression the larger masculine ID'd community of lesbians thought of us. It seemed that although the masculine ID'd were pretty swinging (in that they enjoyed submissive bois and very toppy femmes who didn't seem allowed to have needs) the stereotype was still pervasive in people's heads about femme femininity.

This probably has changed somewhat as it's been 10 years since I've lived there and I know the feminist porn awards are there now etc.

When I moved to london, gosh I can't tell you how different it became. It was like a veil lifted off me that wieghed two sacks of wet cement. I was seen. And yes, many times people thought I was straight or bisexual, but here's the key, they didn't give a sh*t and still tried to chat me up in the bar or give me an appreciative once over on the tube. I'd like to state this is a London phenomena, I know it changes when you leave London. There are also so many lesbian clubs, bars, nights and venues I can't possibly know them all.

And because of this and because of a very organsied and outgoing Individual who moved to london from her country, club wotever was started. and from that little wee club of generqueer that turned into club nights, weekly bar nights, movie nights and a sex club - club fuk (which just closed) and then started Bird Club because she felt there needed to be a feminine (she doesn't ID as femme, she ID's as Bird, which is the working class name for girl and she's very political in that way) gender queer club (temporarily closed due to lack of venue but she's still looking).

But the difference in visual acceptance I got between vancouver, seattle, calgary, toronto, portland...vs London is unfathomable if you haven't experienced that kind of visual immediate acceptance. I'm not talking about the lesbian nod, which I still don't get - though in oxford I've had it twice when I've been out with my wife. And everytime it happens I'm always gobsmacked and pleased down to my teeniest toe. But the casualness of acceptance in queer space. the tone is very different. there's an ease that I know I can just be. I don't have to be ever so slightly tense all night cause I'm going to get "those looks" or get challenged at the door or if not verbally by the scowl as I walk in. or some drunk will come up and say something stupid about straight girls in pubs.

Or worse, that feeling you have the words "serial killer" painted on your forehead if you go to a pub on your own and no one will talk to you, even though you've tried a couple times to start polite convo with people beside you. but they will stare.

that doesn't happen in London, not in my experience. The cloak of invisibility isn't nearly as smothering. I get some of the same stereotype assumptions of what I'm like as a person: high strung, demanding, constant need for attention etc but that's really just from mouthy young baby dykes at clubs who are pretty high matinance and attention seeking themselves but fail to claim these charming traights because they happen to see themselves as masculine. They figure it out later that it's a personality traight, not a gender trait. and frankly I don't have to be around them till they figure it out cause there's enough people who know I'm an individual with individual personality traits and I do not have a borg personality just because I'm wearing heels.

[imperfect_cupcake]

And because of this and because of a very organsied and outgoing Individual who moved to london from her country, club wotever was started. and from that little wee club of generqueer that turned into club nights, weekly bar nights, movie nights and a sex club - club fuk (which just closed) and then started Bird Club because she felt there needed to be a feminine (she doesn't ID as femme, she ID's as Bird, which is the working class name for girl and she's very political in that way) gender queer club (temporarily closed due to lack of venue but she's still looking).

Apologies, I wrote too quickly and I realise there was some info missing. Ingo started wotever world with a lot of big help from the community and volunteers and Bird la Bird started Bird Club - if anyone wants any help or advice in starting gender queer clubs in their area, they are both on facebook. Wotever World (Ingo) and Bird la Bird (Kath) are their pages.

[Quintease]

I have to say that I've never felt invisible in London most of the time anyway.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Apologies, I wrote too quickly and I realise there was some info missing. Ingo started wotever world with a lot of big help from the community and volunteers and Bird la Bird started Bird Club - if anyone wants any help or advice in starting gender queer clubs in their area, they are both on facebook. Wotever World (Ingo) and Bird la Bird (Kath) are their pages.

Just would like to say that I've party-ed with Ingo and Ingo rocks. Go to anything Ingo produces !
Also would like to say that butches adore Femmes! So do "Femme" your own way and we will love You for You.
XO

[Medusa]

So, I'm completely out at work. Have been since day 1. ( I find it much easier to just bust it on out rather than let them find out later because I have a big mouth and don't do well keeping my business to myself).

Many folks at work have either met Jack or at least seen photos of her (on my desk). Today, someone who I have only worked with over the phone came to my office and seemed surprised that Jack is a big honkin' Butch.

Her words were: "It's not that you're a Lesbian, it's that I expected your girlfriend to look...you know...like YOU." (she meant feminine and in make-up etc.)

Anyone else had this happen where folks assume your partner must also be Femme just because you are?

[gaea]

Originally Posted by Medusa

So, I'm completely out at work. Have been since day 1. ( I find it much easier to just bust it on out rather than let them find out later because I have a big mouth and don't do well keeping my business to myself).

Many folks at work have either met Jack or at least seen photos of her (on my desk). Today, someone who I have only worked with over the phone came to my office and seemed surprised that Jack is a big honkin' Butch.

Her words were: "It's not that you're a Lesbian, it's that I expected your girlfriend to look...you know...like YOU." (she meant feminine and in make-up etc.)

Anyone else had this happen where folks assume your partner must also be Femme just because you are?

yes....the worst part is when they say why not just be with a bio male....ive tried explaining this over and over some get it some dont...

Im sorry you had this experience i hope you co worker wakes up and smells the coffee